Quirky HR
Quirky HR
Ep 64 | Evan Murphy Discusses the Unemployment Game : The House Doesn't Always Win
This week's Quirky HR podcast is insightful conversation with Evan Murphy, principal at Unemployment Tax Control Associates (UTCA), where we discuss the unemployment game, how the rules change state by state, and how a Bail Team with a good game plan can win even if it means making concessions. Evan and Dana also talk about the benefits of finding a local SHRM chapter no matter what your HR capacity. Enjoy!
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Dana Dowdell - Boss Consulting - @bossconsultinghr - @hrfanatic
This episode is brought to you by Quirky HR Coaching. If you've been working in human resources and are feeling burned out and have always wanted to start your own consulting company, then this coaching program is for you. With Quirky HR Coaching, we'll meet one-on-one over a series of sessions to craft your consulting company exactly how you would like it, and we'll cover all of the important details contracting, pricing, how to engage in customers, how to deliver your services, who you want to meet with, how to fire a customer all of the things that come up when you own your own business. So if you're interested in signing up for Quirky HR Coaching, head on over to boss consulting HR and click on the Quirky HR tab and sign up for a one-on-one so we can chat more and find out if Quirky HR Coaching is meant for you. Hello there, Welcome back to another episode of Quirky HR. I am joined by friend in the HR world, Evan Murphy. He's a principal at UTCA, which is the Unemployment Tax Control Associates organization. Welcome to Quirky HR, Evan.
Evan Murphy:Thanks, Dana, pleasure to be here.
Dana Dowdell:Thank you for being here. So we haven't covered unemployment on the podcast before and the service that you guys provide at UTCA, so can you start by telling us a little bit about what you do and how you partner with employers?
Evan Murphy:Yeah, absolutely so. UTCA we're an unemployment services partner. We've been in business since over 33 years now, but we work nationally and we work with human resource departments sometimes different areas of the business, but typically HR managing the cost and complexity that's associated with the unemployment process. So in the eyes of those state agencies we become one and the same as the employer, So there's a lot to go into it, but that's pretty much base of how we operate.
Dana Dowdell:And you operate in every state.
Evan Murphy:Every state, every US territory, though I can't say I've been lucky enough to do an appeal hearing in the Virgin Islands or anything like that.
Dana Dowdell:We have to get you. If there's someone listening that operates in the US Virgin Islands or Hawaii, let's say you should connect with Evan.
Evan Murphy:We have clients there, just not never been fortunate enough to go on any of those trips, but maybe one day.
Dana Dowdell:So unemployment is so state specific and I have to say we've, in the consulting capacity, worked with clients and one of the first things that many of them say when we start talking about unemployment is you can't ever win. Is that the case?
Evan Murphy:No, that isn't the case. It isn't the case, and I think, yeah, as much as they can be nuanced between state to state, a lot of the adjudication standards and a lot of the burden of proof that employers have is the same. But it can be incredibly frustrating and I think one of the things that we do with our partnership. I think some people think you know they've got this secret silver bullet or this backdoor or there's something that they know that we don't know, but in a lot of senses, what we're just doing is having them learn how to play the game and making it fit to their company and kind of understanding, taking a real hard look at the processes and the way that they manage their workforce and how we can kind of build efficiency, whether it be by terms of their policy or communication, so that we're playing the game the right way.
Evan Murphy:There are things you know, based off our 30-plus years of expertise, that help in serving and communicating with the state agencies, but a lot of times, you know, the first step is just leaning into it. I find a lot of people that say, hey, we never win are the ones that aren't really taking swings right, because they are just saying they had a bad experience before. So they just kind of threw their hands up and whitewashed the whole thing to say, you know, this is stacked against us, but we, you know, we've got to de-escalate them, bring them down and kind of help understand where they're at and then build from there.
Dana Dowdell:Well, and I feel like so. I'm in Connecticut, I've done stuff in Rhode Island with unemployment and the systems themselves. It's legislation-driven right, like who qualifies for unemployment, how they qualify, how the benefits are calculated, and that in itself is really complicated. And so you know, UTCA is the expert in understanding how the systems work and kind of breaking it down for the employer to really say like oh okay, that's how the base period is calculated or that's how the appeal process works right.
Evan Murphy:Yeah, absolutely, and a lot of those. You know a lot of those statutes. While there's been changes to legislation how those calculations work, or that were revised. You know particularly that's happening a lot now. A lot of the stuff in terms of adjudication whether a claim is approved or denied those statutes have existed for, you know, 60 plus years. So one of that stuff doesn't change. But it's just us kind of helping them understand it and how it fits in and what they're doing. But, yeah, when you're looking at, hey, this is a change to their tax rate schedule or this is how it's going to impact them, those are really the things that they, you know, lean on us from as far as the compliance side and understanding, you know, tax implications or cost implications.
Dana Dowdell:So I'm a big fan of the idea of a bail team. So when you own a business, you should have a bail team which is a banker, an attorney, insurance and a lawyer no, sorry, banker, accountant, insurance and lawyer and then I like to tack HR on to the end of it. So it's like a bailer team bail her team. But what you guys do it really is that strategic partnership. So, like in my own experience, I've run into it where and this is in my prior life when I was working for someone else, but where we were considering offering severance to someone and we had reached out to I can't I don't know if we were, we were partnered with you guys or another agency but we had reached out to them to understand what would be the max benefit that this person would qualify for when filing for unemployment, and that calculation played into what we offered them for severance. And so the partnership between an employer and an agency like UTCA, that has to start from the beginning right.
Evan Murphy:That's really astute, because I think some folks in our space, if they look at our industry, as being like oh, they process claims, so we don't have to write they, just they do what's coming through as far as the claim cycle and that saves us some time and that's it. That's transactional right, Like that's a transactional part of it.
Evan Murphy:Right, right, but then you know, as you're describing is really the way our whole system is built.
Evan Murphy:And then when we decide we're going to engage with the partner as you I'm sure you know from dealing with unemployment like the set of facts that determine whether a claim is approved or denied, that set of facts that are not before that claim is ever filed. So we really like to engage with our employers to give them, I guess, be part of that bail team. I've never used that expression before but I'm going to after this. So if they want specific insight, right, say, say, you're dealing with a separation or someone suspended, or, you know, maybe they are worried about other collateral areas of litigation and employment law. You know we are part of that kind of that war room huddle to look at it objectively and say, hey, here's likely how the unemployment claim is going to play out, based on what happens next. Here's going to be the value, and you know there's different things that we have. So instead of being reactive, we've now got a plan in place for this one particular potential claim.
Dana Dowdell:I love that the war room huddle.
Evan Murphy:Yeah, yeah, you know, sometimes we put the legal minds together, you know the compliance minds, you've got the being counters, so to speak, and everyone has their stake, you know.
Dana Dowdell:Well, I think it's the strategic desire of HR as a function is to look at those situations and say, okay, what's the best way to handle it, what's the best way to spend our time, energy and resources in this, you know, in this termination or in this suspension or whatever it may be. And having a resource like you guys really brings to light the exposure from an unemployment perspective.
Evan Murphy:Yeah, and in a lot of ways I think it really mitigates what resources you're going to dedicate down the road. I mean, I can't tell you how many times you know employers will reach out to us and say, oh, you know we're looking at separating this and we're going to have to do this. We're separating this employee and this might happen, and those are always tough decisions to make. And then you know they're weighing how far they want to take this or what might happen, and you know we're realizing, looking at their base period, it's worth $500. Yeah, so maybe we don't need to stress so hard. You know, as long as we're putting our best foot forward on everything else, then you know you might have a venue there where you don't necessarily have to worry as much.
Dana Dowdell:What are some misconceptions around the unemployment system as a whole? You know high level so, like I know I have employees will say, oh, my employer said I couldn't get unemployment. And I'm always like it's not up to your employer do they influence, sure, but is it up to them now? So what are some other misconceptions that exist in unemployment?
Evan Murphy:Yeah, again, really astute. I think it's funny sometimes we'll be consulting with someone initially and I'll have someone say, oh well, we, we deny their claim or you know, we let them collect and you know you have to tactfully tell them local, no, you didn't. It's the state that makes the ultimate decision. I think there's often some confusion from from claimant's perspective to right, like there's a sense of entitlement, or they think that some portion of their paycheck is going and they are entitled to receiving this benefit, and not really understanding like, hey, you know, if you told your manager to go cut politely screw on a Friday and you were on a corrective action, you're not going to get that. You shouldn't get that anyway. So, yeah, I think people not understanding the way it's funded, or eligibility or their role in the process and how you know they have any weight in the determinations.
Dana Dowdell:Yeah, I think that there's continues to be a lot of misconceptions around how the system works and, in a way, I think ego plays into leadership so much and you have quite a background in leadership and the idea of, like, I'm going to keep this person from collecting unemployment, so I'm going to threaten them that they're not going to get it, and then that's not how it works.
Evan Murphy:Yeah. Or like waving a wand saying you know well, not this, but we'll let you collect unemployment and all but guaranteeing that that's going to happen. And you know, unfortunately that's not the way the process works.
Dana Dowdell:Well, I've run into it before. We've had an employee that is was fairly new not being successful in their job and it was kind of just not a good fit. But their situation created us a commitment to work where, like they were, they weren't willing to quit, and so we approached them and said it's not working out. We won't contest your right to collect unemployment and that doesn't dictate. You know how they go on and file their claim. But I think you know understanding how the system works is really the key to using it strategically and using it in a way that supports your organizational strategies and your talent management strategies, right, yeah, I would agree, I would agree.
Evan Murphy:Yeah, have a game plan you know, before you get there.
Dana Dowdell:Yeah, yeah. What are your qualms with the unemployment system and how it operates now?
Evan Murphy:Yeah, I've had clients in the past be like, well, we don't want to bear unemployment. Unfortunately I can't do that. There's no button I can press for you there. But you know, I think right now, particularly coming out of the pandemic, I mean it's always been, particularly here in the Northeast to it's always been a pretty pro-claimant environment and you will see the differences by state by state, not necessarily in their processes but their overall stance as far as determinations happening. Like I can tell you if you're in Connecticut, that's a very pro-claimant, somewhat, even say employer hostile state, as far as they look at UI versus. You know, if you look at Texas it's kind of like don't mess with Texas, right, like you have to really have your ducks in a row as a claimant to make sure that you're going to collect.
Evan Murphy:But you know, those things aside, I think coming out of the pandemic there's been, I feel I feel bad for the state agencies in a lot of ways. I mean we communicate with them continually all the time and they're just at such a tough place resource wise. You know a lot of them have like temps, new adjudicators, and they just don't have the resources even still to dig out from a lot of the volume that had been created this mass, in the last few years. So I think that's been particularly challenging and I think you know it's funny because in nearly all of the adjudication standards you know what UI state agencies are looking for on a claim-by-claim basis is making sure that employers are following their own policies and they're doing so in a uniform way and a demonstrable way in which it's consistent. We don't necessarily see the determinations come out that same way, so that's always frustrating, but for us it's coming back to our clients and helping them understand whether they got this wrong, what are our options for appeal and how are these things likely to play out. So that struggle, I think, is going to be consistent.
Evan Murphy:I think it's just been worse over the last few years since COVID. On the other side, I think right now a lot of these states are struggling with the solvency of their state trust funds, their unemployment trust funds. In the past and to this point, their solutions have been, unfortunately, put it on the burden of employers. That's how they are going to recoup this. If you look back at COVID, this was through no fault of their own. Everyone was trying to be the best corporate citizen as they could be related to the health crisis, and now they're stuck footing the bill. So we aren't lobbyists in any mean, but we do try to make our voices heard for the basis of our employers. That's been really tough. A lot of the reforms that are coming out they feel more punitive, but again that's about communication with their employers and helping them understand, and the stakes have just gotten higher.
Dana Dowdell:Yeah, not lobbyists, but maybe advocates.
Evan Murphy:Vocal advocates yes.
Dana Dowdell:Yeah Well, I think that's important, because if you don't understand the system yourself as an employer, are you going to these meetings with legislators and voicing the impact? No, but if you're partnering with an organization like UTCA, they're doing that for you and helping legislators understand the impact of the statutes and legislation that they're passing that impact your bottom line or your process or your forward path as an organization.
Evan Murphy:Yeah, absolutely. I mean we try to provide as much between legislators and different employer advocacy groups, trying to provide as much insight process-wise or data-wise or other being testimony and hearings and things like that that we can provide that can help them really tune into what's actually happening. So it's interesting. It's been more interesting over the last few years. Let's just hope that there can be some common sense applied.
Dana Dowdell:Ooh, does common sense exist anymore?
Evan Murphy:It's not so common sometimes, but yeah, it's evolving, we'll say that much.
Dana Dowdell:I want to to the point of unemployment and just the work experience changing. I want to ask a little bit about multi-state employers or employers that have remote employees working in other states and they're actually doing business in, and that applies to the unemployment systems as well, correct?
Evan Murphy:Yeah, absolutely. And it's since the pandemic where everyone was shut down and then there was kind of this awakening of opportunity, I would say, and being like, hey, we can capitalize on you know, we're a Connecticut-based company but you know, we've got a dynamic loan originator that's in Oklahoma right now We'll. So now we're going to bring them on. Well, now you need to open up a state unemployment account. Now you need to understand what's going to happen compliance-wise from there.
Evan Murphy:So we've really had to hold our clients' hands and kind of like walking them, guiding them through that process and getting them set up and making sure that they're doing the right thing. You know, and it can be, it can be tricky sometimes because you've got, you know, one employer there in different states might say, OK, well, it's not until you have four employees that you need this, or until they reach a certain threshold in terms of wages. So kind of working through with them like how does it look now in this, say, Oklahoma? Or how is it going to look six months from now? And when that person ends their assignment or they leave, what happens with that account then? Trying to help them go through that.
Dana Dowdell:As far as a management tracking stance, yeah, I feel like the takeaway there is, like don't bootstrap it, like don't just hire them in Connecticut and if they're working in another state, lived in, worked in are key terms to have an awareness of when you're hiring remote employees.
Evan Murphy:Yeah, absolutely, and I think we've seen some that are doing that and they've been like oh wow, really, and then we've kind of helped them get their ducks in a row.
Dana Dowdell:Correct their path.
Evan Murphy:Yes, advise, and there's some states where even when you set up an account, they want the physical address of the what ends up being sometimes one employee. So it's just helping them kind of walk through that stuff together and for the most part it's easy enough. It's just it's wondering like, oh hey, by the way, we forgot 18 different people working in 18 different states. Now and trying to peel that on your back.
Dana Dowdell:Yeah, I have a client where we had an employee working remotely in New York this is before I came on board and the accountant or like the assistant accountant set up the employer as an employer in New York. But when they reported the number of employees and anticipated wages, they did so for the entire workforce, not just, not for that, just one employee. So we started to get notices that we had all these past due balances, that we were not paying appropriate tax rate amounts for New York and it was just to unwind. That was a lot of work and a lot of headache and I think it just is a regular reminder of tapping into the experts that exist who know these things and who can help you through these processes and getting set up appropriately, because to unwind it it's just a nightmare sometimes.
Evan Murphy:Yeah, sometimes in setting those things up, whether BHR or accounting, they're under such pressure, such a rush to get everything going and then not realizing it, and then, hey, your quarterly didn't come through right and now it's footing us a bill that's 10X of what it actually should be for one employee. So having eyes on it, I think, is the first step.
Dana Dowdell:Yeah, absolutely. So I wanna switch gears a little bit and talk a little bit about SHRM. So I'd like to believe that everyone that listens to this podcast is aware of SHRM, because I'm hoping you work in HR but SHRM Society of Human Resource Management one of the top, I would say, contributors to the HR sphere from a career, certification, knowledge resource perspective, and so you do a lot with SHRM leadership. Can you talk a little bit about how you got involved in SHRM, and particularly in SHRM leadership, because there's lots of opportunities to have a voice in SHRM.
Evan Murphy:Sure, yeah, so I'm currently the president of Human Resource Leadership Association of Eastern Connecticut, which is even more of a mouthful than unemployment task control associates. So I gotta go to the acronyms. But we're a SHRM certified chapter and we were SHRM members before I ever was involved in leadership or volunteering at a chapter level and it's always been hugely beneficial for us. Even when we're looking at policies or things that may apply as you mentioned, multi-state, looking at different policies from different states, that SHRM's like a fantastic resource from. But how I got involved? I am actually involved with a number of different chapters throughout the Northeast and I had a friend I guess a network colleague, who I consider somewhat of a mentor to me, invite me to go to an HRLA Connecticut meeting and I think you know you're obviously a part of the chapter, you know a key part of the chapter, you and your team, and you know I got a really different vibe from our chapter in particular, not that any one chapter is better or worse than the other, but it was a very inviting space and I think you know in my role we're advisors, we're consultants, but we're not actual. I myself I'm not an HR practitioner, right, so I talk to HR all day long. I talk to folks like yourselves. Sometimes you get kind of a sense. It's like you're a little peripheral or like maybe you're a bit of an outsider and I never got that sense in stepping in with our chapter. So you know they wanted me to be a part of the conversation and I think the benefits of you know your local chapters is you are able to connect and you are able to engage and you'll be able to weigh and benchmark. Sometimes it just looks like a gripe session but you're able to weigh in with those folks that are in your region tapping into the same workforce as yourself. And for me it really helped get a sense for the profession as a whole on the ground level and everything else, because you know my window can be so small right, it's very specific in unemployment and what I have an eye or an ear into. So it's been fantastic from my perspective and really understanding the profession.
Evan Murphy:And you know, from a leadership standpoint I mean that really just evolved. You know I think we started as a sponsor initially at UTCA and then, you know, was invited to be a part of program planning meetings and then that turned into me being the treasurer and then, moving out of that, you know I was flattered to be asked to be president, so I've. It's been a wild ride, it's been a great ride. I've got to meet fantastic people, make great friends again, really try to understand the space more and I think I've gotten to that level. But it's been very fulfilling in terms of you know, helping the chapter run and being responsive to the numbers that are there and understanding you know whatever you want to need. It's been great and I've had a fantastic team.
Dana Dowdell:Well, the nice part is there's like a direct line to the SHRM parent organization and that we are notified of the major initiatives and trainings and conferences and all of that, and so participating in the state level chapter has been, on my side of things, really beneficial from a resource network perspective and an initiative perspective too.
Evan Murphy:Yeah, I agree, and all that stuff was kind of I was ignorant to it before.
Evan Murphy:I was kind of shrouded and missed a little bit.
Evan Murphy:You know you've got your state council and then you know I was in my head I called them like Mama Sherm you know, like Mama Sherm's always the mother ship. Yeah, the mother ship is communicating down to us, but it's not really. You know, what I can say is it's not a one-way communication track. You know they're very much like in lockstep with us, whether it be an initiative or hey, there's breaking legislation and getting it out. It's our clients are helping them understand it or, you know, trying to get interpretation going the other way back to SHRM, and that's where I think those resources are so valuable. So it's been really eye-opening, particularly. You know we've got a couple opportunities a year where we can engage with, you know, other chapters and kind of like putting our heads together from all across the country and kind of looking what they're dealing with and how they've done it successfully or where they've had issues. And that collaboration I think you know, at least I think it goes a long way in boiling down to your local chapter here.
Dana Dowdell:Yeah, it's great, and I think something important to understand too about the local HR chapters is you don't necessarily have to work in HR to join and attend, so if you're a office manager and you have HR responsibilities, they're a great resource for you to network with other professionals and learn more about HR as a skill. You don't have to have HR in your title in order to attend these events.
Evan Murphy:Yeah, I think that's really important because if you look at the makeup of our chapter, you've got some long-term HR professionals that have been incredibly complex roles, and then you have some folks that are kind of like the de facto HR person right, like they're maybe a little bit part financed, they're maybe just been thrust into that role and they're trying to figure it out. And that's where I think it can be really invaluable being able to kind of pull from those resources that are there. I mean, even we have students that are interested in that career track I mean, you've seen it yourself with the program. I mean someone who's interested and why not tap into that now and help them? That's the future of HR and I think that's what's so great about those individual chapters, because you've got people coming from all these different walks and it's great to see them when they start cohorting and building those relationships because they're all able to feed off each other.
Dana Dowdell:Well, in networking too. I did an episode about networking in an HR capacity, and I don't think it's inherent in our HR DNA to network unless you're in like a recruiter role, right, and you have to build those connections. And so it's really nice, from a career perspective and just a resourcing perspective, if you're an HR department of one or you're new in HR, to have that network of other professionals that you can lean on and resource and connect with or commiserate with when you have a hard day. I think that's really important when you work in HR.
Evan Murphy:Yeah, most definitely. I've talked to more than a few people, whether it be our chapter or otherwise, who they've said they're naturally shy or introverted, and they've built these relationships where you're talking to them like oh, I just talked to so and so other member and we were just talking about this on the phone last week, or we get coffee or we commit to once a month meeting together to kind of whether it's just tell war stories or whatever, and I think those are the things that are so invaluable.
Dana Dowdell:Yeah, it's incredible, Evan. Where can listeners connect with you?
Evan Murphy:So you can find me on LinkedIn and apologies, I don't have that profile dedicated. I think you probably do, or you can check UTCA at UTCAINCcom. But certainly feel free to reach out, want to learn more if there's anywhere we can help get you appointed in the right direction. Otherwise, fairly active on LinkedIn so you can talk to an unemployment nerd there.
Dana Dowdell:Yeah, and of course we'll make sure all of that information is in the show notes so you can just click the link, find your way over to Evan's profile and, if you're local to Eastern Connecticut or Connecticut in general, come check out HRLACT, which is our local HR chapter. We have meetings every month and it's fantastic, great resources. So, Evan, thank you for being on Quirky HR.
Evan Murphy:Thank you so much, Dana.