Quirky HR
Quirky HR
EP 62 | Decoding the Power of Open Dialogue in Workplaces and Encouraging Honest Conversations with Nancy Lyons
Nancy Lyons’s journey to establishing Clockwork, a design and technology consultancy for regulated industries, is truly inspiring. We discuss the benefits of open dialogues, especially during times of employee resignation. Such interactions can help prevent future issues and motivate employees to become agents of positive transformation—a testament to Lyons’s expertise. Tune in to navigate the complexities of change and resistance in your organization, and discover the role of HR in challenging the status quo with Nancy Lyons.
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Dana Dowdell - Boss Consulting - @bossconsultinghr - @hrfanatic
Dana Dowdell 0:00
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Hello, welcome back to quirky HR. I am joined today by Nancy Lyons. She is the founder of clockwork. Nancy, welcome to quirky HR.
Nancy Lyons 1:16
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Dana Dowdell 1:18
excited to have you. So what is clockwork? What do you do? How did you do it?
Nancy Lyons 1:24
Ha. Clockwork is an experienced design and technology consultancy. We've been around for about 20 years. And we solve complex problems using technology and business strategy for the enterprise. So we focus primarily unregulated industries, we spend a lot of time with financial services, manufacturing, insurance and health care. So to really break that down and simplify it, we build very complicated websites, software and applications for big companies that are trying to solve really difficult problems. But in addition to that, we also have a change practice, and a UX UI consultancy. So we're helping them conceive of how to solve the problem, then we help them think about the people that they need to bring along to ensure that the technology investment works. And then we actually execute on the technology.
Dana Dowdell 2:24
There's a quote out there that I, and I'm gonna butcher it, but it's like the fastest way for a company to die, as are the the phrase that kills any company as well. "That's how we've always done it".
Nancy Lyons 2:35
Mm hmm. I mean, that is, it's actually something that I just posted about on LinkedIn last week, because I feel like in my speaking in my writing, those are the people that I'm addressing, it's always those people that are dragging their feet and making it impossible. And having been around, you know, my entire career has been spent working in the on the internet. That makes me sound like a really exciting worker. But But I won't touch that my entire career has been spent on the internet. And I believe that I have seen just about every mistake an organization can make. And it's never the technology that fails, although for a long time, I watched organizations invest and reinvest and reinvest and bail on strategic solutions that they had created. And what they really failed to embrace is this idea that if people don't get there with you, it doesn't matter how much you spend on your CRM, it doesn't matter how much you invest in that new platform, it won't work. And people are the biggest problems at work. They're the they're the biggest opportunities, and the greatest problems,
Dana Dowdell 3:52
That's gonna say and the biggest solutions. Some of that is cultural, right? Like if you're not putting time and attention and intention into your culture before you start some type of change. Do you see it just being one roadblock after roadblock after roadblock in transforming something?
Nancy Lyons 4:13
Absolutely. I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head, you have to be intentional about culture. I think most people feel like it just happens. you state your mission, vision values, purpose, you have that direction. And culture falls out of that. And that's not true. In fact, I'm starting work on a new book, and we'll talk about my my current book, but I'm starting working on a new book and I'm exploring this idea that work is a cult. And there you go, there you go. There you have it. And the reason that I'm intrigued by that comparison, is you know, I've said to a lot of people, you know, when you really dig in deep when you start to listen to the podcast, you start to read the books about cults, which are fascinating and fall into that sort of true crime realm, a lodge which we're all sort of obsessed with If you recognize that it's not the cult leaders, necessarily that keep people entrenched, in, you know, the way things should work. It's all the members of the cult, it's everybody else who subscribe to this idea and refuse to let it go. And so it's those other either because the leader doesn't necessarily have a relationship with everybody, it doesn't necessarily either that person doesn't necessarily have this closeness or this impact, they speak the good word, but it's those people who subscribe to it, and then interpret it in their own way that actually tamped down progress. And I'm really intrigued by that comparison, and I'm gonna run with it, we'll see whether or not I actually published but that's where I'm starting. Because I do think that at work, it's not necessarily the CEO, you know, the CEO is supposed to be a visionary, who's, you know, heading towards, you know, opportunity and possibility in the future. But everybody else buys into what it was not what it could be, but what it was, and they want to ensure that everybody's right there with them. And I think that can be problematic.
Dana Dowdell 6:14
I am a big True Crime lover. And I'm fascinated by that comparison.
Nancy Lyons 6:23
Thanks. I kind of am too. I mean, you know, it's an excuse to listen to more cold podcasts. But that's cool.
Dana Dowdell 6:30
I feel like I watch True Crime stuff to escape from like the day to day of my job, and challenges and people.
Nancy Lyons 6:38
Oh, absolutely. It could always be worse. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Dana Dowdell 6:45
Oh, my goodness. All right. So what So give us some examples of stalling change, and what the impact is, in the long run on an organization?
Nancy Lyons 6:59
Well, I think you know, right now, change is inevitable. There's no avoiding it. And yet, we still have people who, who resist. And I think it's because, you know, I often tell people, the past is known, you know, the future is unknown. And we as a species are more comfortable with what's known. That's why we look back and romanticize everything that's happened to us before, right? It's like, the good old days, they weren't necessarily that great. You know, stuff has happened all the time. But we romanticize about how we survived it. And I think that's always true. And I think organizations, you know, especially now, after the pandemic, I think people are really struggling with these existential crises, right, they're wondering, how did I get into this work? Why am I doing this? Is capitalism really beneficial? You know, am I gonna die at work will ever make enough money to retire? So they're asking themselves, all these questions about their why and their purpose, which means they're not finding it at work, which means, you know, in my mind, I think a lot of people choose sort of the lazy route. And whether they're conscious of it or not, they basically follow a job description. They check the boxes in their job description. I mean, you work in HR, do how often do you hear people say, well, that's not my job. That's not my job. Often, exactly. And I think people get entrenched in this, I'm only going to do what they pay me for. And then they wonder why they aren't excited about their work. And so I think change comes from a lot of places it comes from, or I'm sorry, I think, change stagnation comes from a lot of places. I think it comes from our comfort zone, I'm not comfortable trying something new. I'm not comfortable embracing something new. I think people are worried that they, they'll look silly, they'll do it wrong. They're worried about what other people think. I think it's all these basic human responses to change, that impact, organizational response to change. And, and those, those people tend to become ballast inside organizations and they drag progress down. And it has everything to do with their comfort level and how they onboard new people, and how they talk about it. And I think that we used to have a lot of time to adapt to change, right? I do this talk on the history of innovation. And in the talk I talk about, literally when the universe started and then how long after that we got to fire and it was a real long time. So we had tons of time to adapt to our humanity. And then from fire to electricity, real long time but now, there are whole businesses there are whole you You know, inventions that happen in a year's time. And we're being asked to adapt to that to reckon I mean, right now with jet GBT, look at what's happening people are, you know, there's the camp that thinks AI is the devil. And there's the camp that's absolutely convinced that that it's going to take our jobs. And then there's the fraction of humans that believes, okay, there's something here. And my take on that is, the only thing you have to fear is fear itself. That fear is what's holding you back. And you don't have to know how to engineer artificial intelligence. But you do have to have a theoretical understanding of it. People say to me all the time, are robots gonna take my job? And I say, No, robots won't take your job. But people that are comfortable using AI, people that are comfortable exploring it, people that are curious about it, those people might take your job. And that's what you have to worry about. Because the people who are willing to embrace new thinking new ideas, new technology, who are curious about it, who are thinking actively about how to incorporate it in what they do. Those people, those people are the people who will advance and the people who are terrified of change. They are the ballast, eventually we cut Bellis loose. I don't know if I answered your question, but there I went,
Dana Dowdell 11:20
Oh, that's I don't even know if you did, either. But I'm having so many thoughts because, you know, thinking about generational differences in the workplace, and those that, you know, have no desire to learn new platforms, computer systems, you know, and that's a constant challenge. For HR. Right? Hmm. So, to that point, how does how does this idea of change, influence impact? And yeah, influence and impact HR?
Nancy Lyons 11:55
Yeah, well, I think, you know, I do a lot of HR conferences when I speak. And I always ask people, do you know, where HR came from? Why did we invent this idea of HR. And, you know, it was it was, it was HR, that really started to take care of people, right to manage the 40 hour workweek to ensure that people don't literally die on the job to create, you know, a way for us to pay closer attention to the way we were endangered humans in the workplace. But it has morphed over time. And it has become less about the people don't hate me and more about protecting organizations from litigation. So my question is always, so who's taking care of the people? And I do think that unless we're looking at, you know, we talked about organizations, we talk about them singularly. You know, let's take a company, let's say Walmart, Walmart is Walmart, right? That's a single thing. Actually, it's an organism that is made up of humans, right. And we don't speak of it that way. We dehumanize people inside of organizations to make it easier to create policy. And we expect that policy to have this sort of blanket impact. And I think what we're realizing now is that as our culture becomes more and more diverse, as our needs become more and more diverse, and we're wrecking, like the pandemic show, you know, shined a huge light on exactly that, like it's, it's hard to be alive right now. You know, we're all busy, we're all stressed, we have children, we have families, we have obligations. It's not like when you just rode a horse to work, right? It's very different. And, and people are recognizing that and they're struggling with it. And I think HR has an opportunity to be integral in defining that big question that's on everybody's mind, which is the future of work. But it's not just how we show up at our desks or where we work. It's what do we need to feel connected to it, to feel purposeful in it? And to actually manage the rest of our lives? But we're not doing that, right. HR is not doing that organizations aren't doing that we're spending more time focused on Well, where are we going to work? I need butts in seats. People can't work at home, oh, people can't work in the office people need. It's not where it's how, and I think HR is is the, the the beacon that we should be able to look to to help us consider what comes next. And I'm hopeful that they'll get there. But I think they need to be inside a visionary organizations that recognize that challenge.
Dana Dowdell 14:59
Yeah, So that was going to be my follow up question. As you know, a common topic or thread that comes up on this podcast is that idea of HR having a seat at the table, and I own a consultancy company. So we're in a lot of organizations, we work with very progressive organizational leaders that really value HR insight. And then we work with very the opposite, where we are simply the executor of a decision that we were not a part of. And so I'm curious, your thoughts on you know, I consider myself a change agent, I'm, my response, when someone brings me a question is like, well, do we just blow it up and do something different? You know, like, can we don't have to keep doing the same thing? But I'm curious, you know, how does HR really put, you know, carve their path out, so that they can start to be looked at as, as a department and as that strategic partner, because there, there are still organizations who, who don't give a shit about HR, and they view them simply as compliance. And it's been a battle for the last, you know, 1520 years, at least,
Nancy Lyons 16:15
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, That's probably why you work for yourself. Yeah, right. Because because you are changing it, and you are a visionary, and you are somebody who sees the opportunity there. But most organizations can't get there, and it doesn't feel safe for them to try, right, they're really worried about the litigious nature of, you know, humans, and I get that, I think there's an opportunity for us to really apply, you know, design thinking, for lack of a better term, to the challenge, and really include the people. And, you know, I, I sometimes give HR folks hives, because I'll be speaking at a private event. And I will say to people, if you can't find yourself here, like if you don't see yourself adding value, not not checking boxes, but adding value, and challenging the status quo and, and getting to have a voice we, regardless of how large the organization is, because people say to me all the time, I'm only one person, how can I make change? And I say, Well, you know, you might not be able to shift the entirety of Walmart, let's use Walmart again. But you can make smaller shifts, make an impact on your team, your department, your division, you know, you can have an impact on the immediate circle of humans that you work with. And that can change their culture, because there are micro cultures inside of every organization. Right. And that is not something we should ignore. So I think HR has an opportunity to include the people in some of these bigger, more visionary, more challenging conversations, and really start to ask what's sacred to us? What do we need to thrive? What is holding us back and start to explore those things and determine, you know, what, what policies, what procedures, what ways of being have we always leaned on that are actually detrimental to the forward movement of the organization, and start to workshop that, but I don't think HR can do it in a vacuum. And I certainly don't think they can do it as, as sole representatives of the organization, I think it has to include the people. And when and if humans don't want to participate in those sorts of activities, that's when you know, that they are not for you. You know, I mean, we have this, that it's so interesting to me, because I work in tech, and Tech has this churn rate, right? You, you know, this being in HR, it's, it's unusual for an engineer to stay in a place for more than 18 months or two years. So people leave to advance their career. Now in my company, we have people who have been there for 13 years 15 I wish I were kidding. And, and it's because of the culture, but the culture isn't just dictated by me, it is something that we all contribute to that we all own, that we all regularly address and speak about, that we align absolutely with our values. And in fact, you know, we just let somebody go because they exhibited behaviors. You see me watch, be careful, careful. They exhibited behaviors that did not align with our values that impacted our clients in a negative way. And it was starting to become a pattern. And so we were able to point absolutely to our values and kind of say, do you understand why this is happening? Great. You know, good luck to you. I think we need to see that on a large Your scale, I think we have to put people at least for a minute over profit enough, you know, in because this idea that we only care about shareholder value doesn't fly anymore. It doesn't fly anymore. That was fine when very rich people owned companies, and they were employing people that were just grateful to have a job. But we have all invested in our careers significantly. And we are peers now. Right? We're hiring peers, we're hiring better than us. So let's include them in the solution making. And, and let's start to experiment. That's the other thing that companies need to make space for experimentation that could fail. Now, I'm not talking to my brain surgeon needs to, you know, experiment while doing surgery, particularly on me. But I do think there's opportunity to think differently about how we apply some of that change thinking and to make space for humans to have a voice in it. Because quite frankly, people are more inclined to change if it isn't just dictated if they are part of the thinking and the mapping to it. Hmm,
Dana Dowdell 21:09
I'm having so many thoughts, I feel like one of my biggest frustrations and in often how we manage people is the we make decisions about employees based on the assumptions of employees, rather than saying, so I'll give you a perfect example that recently happened with a client, high value employee resigned, they were going to competitor where they could make more money. And I think at a non engaged leader, HR professional would say, well, we can't meet that salary or whatever. So we'll just let them go. And I'm a big fan of saying, okay, high value employee, it would, it would be 1000s of dollars to train someone to replace this employee. Let's have a conversation about what else what for them? What would it be, that would keep them there. And it literally was sure compensation had part of it was part of it. But the other part of it was that they weren't feeling proud of their workspace. And had we simply made a decision or taken an action of just accepting that resignation. And moving on, we wouldn't have known like, here, we have a fully invested employee who actually doesn't want to leave. But they're not feeling proud of their workspace. And here's some other actions we can take to re build that trust and, and repair that engagement. And I, I'm curious your thoughts about like, having those honest conversations going to the source, having the employee speak about what they need, and giving them an opportunity to contribute to that. That situation, other than just making decisions simply on one data point?
Nancy Lyons 23:05
Oh, yeah. I mean, you are, you are preaching to the choir, I think, um, you know, when people choose to resign, they are entrenched in the way things have always been think about it. They don't tell you when their job hunting. They don't, because they, you know, they feel like that's like, what's the old school? You know, what's the way of thinking that's been around forever? Don't tell them if you're going to quick sell just firing? Or they're metalli? Eight, or they're exactly, exactly, and so you don't talk to them. And that is, that is such an old way of thinking. Because we've invested in these people, you said it right, high value employee, you know, they they've been there a while we've invested in them, it would be a significant investment to get somebody not even onboarded, but to that level of performance. So it's a value to both the organization and that person to actually be willing to have an honest conversation, but nobody does that. And then when they do their exit interviews, they just polish them up, right? They don't think so we never get the truth. And if organizationally we never get the truth, we can't fix that issue. I applaud that, that activity on your part, you know, being willing to have the honest conversation and then put the feedback, you know, into a solution that works for everybody. I think, you know, I recently had somebody leave, and I tell my staff all the time. I feel like I'm blue in the face, right? I talked about it so much. But I told my staff all the time. If you're thinking about leaving, let's talk about it. You know, if you're finding something, if you're not getting what you need here, let's talk about it. They don't believe me. They come in with their own baggage and they do their own thing. And I have a whole leadership team that they work with that are me but I No, they echo those concerns. And this one person had two issues that made her want to leave. And I pressed her for it before she left. And she and the one issue was I want to lead a team. I want direct reports. And the other issue was, I feel like there are people inside of this organization that are not committed to our values. Like I'm seeing them drop the boat. So yes, we're delivering for our clients, but we're failing each other. And I said to her, Dear God, you know, like, if you're not telling me that, first of all, she just got a promotion, like 18 months ago. And it was the job she really wanted. It did not have a team, but it had a title, right. So it was we had already sort of shown her how she was listed this podcast. We had already sort of shown our hand as being willing to work with people. And we had already demonstrated to her that she was very valuable to us. But in addition to that, I almost can't believe that her that she was willing to leave without flagging the fact that she had people dropping the ball, on their commitments on their accountabilities. And that was a reason that was reason enough for her to want to leave like she was just gonna walk out the door and keep that a secret. To me, that's where that right there is exactly what's wrong with work today. You know, people are too afraid to tell the truth on both sides of the equation, right, organizationally, and individually, too afraid to tell the truth because of what because of, you know, repercussions or retaliation that they've only heard about, like, this woman had invested five years of her life, in our company, five years of watching us operate five years of seeing us really tried to be true to those values, five years of believing a story that she then decided to disbelieve on her way out the door. And even if she you know what she did she she opted to just quit, even if she was going to leave regardless, the value she could have added by being willing to address those things, in an act in a proactive solution focused way would have made her just enormously helpful on her way out the door. And, you know, listen, everybody's an alumnus, we love them all, whether they're here for 10 minutes or here for you know, hours. But that is a perfect example of resistance to change. People cannot imagine having the agency to actually participate in improvements, when they are feeling dissatisfied, or they are witnessing dysfunction. And I don't know how to change that. Because, you know, that is something that is like, you can speak to it like crazy. But I don't know how to convince people that they can be agents of change. If they only use their voice, and they're thinking about solutions, not you know, they're more interested in solution culture, not call out culture. Hmm.
Dana Dowdell 28:27
Well, that was gonna be my follow up question is how do we differentiate that mindset of you know, I'm invested, and I feel frustrated about this, versus I work harder than that person? And I think that's two very different schools of thought. And I'm curious how we differentiate and recognize the motivation, I guess, behind each of those viewpoints.
Nancy Lyons 28:55
Mm hmm. Yeah. I think it's about maturity. I think it's about agency and power, believing you have it believing you are deserving of, you know, contribution. So you know, sometimes I make wisecracks and say get therapy. But there's there's some truth in that right. And we're this particular person was concerned. Um, gosh, I hope she has listened your podcast.
Dana Dowdell 29:23
I have no way of knowing, unfortunately so.
Nancy Lyons 29:26
I know. I don't that she does. I think she had really come into her power over the four or five years that she spent with us. You know, she was relatively green early on, I mean, great and green, really moved into her power, but what she never gave herself permission to do was actually hold her colleagues accountable. You know, she because I believe that part of why we fall down that way is because people are looking for somebody else to solve that problem, they want somebody to see, can you see this is happening? Can't you see I'm not getting what I'm exactly. And I believe that it's why the book that I have out right now is a lot about agency. It's about centering yourself and your agency and recognize and if somebody fails you, you don't have to call them and hang up or be hostile, right, you can actually say, I need your help. I'm not seeing how you're delivering here. You know, it's about our ability to have interpersonal communications about HR and other functions of the organization actually encouraging that. And it's about holding our colleagues accountable, because so much of what our colleagues do, you know, work is so collaborative right now. And so much of what our colleagues do impacts our own work. And if we can't ask for what we need, we will never get it. But we have to believe we are worthy enough to ask for what we need.
Dana Dowdell 30:56
I love that you mentioned therapy, I have been doing a lot of therapy and the amount of tools that I have learned in the therapy that I now bring to my HR work is amazing. Of course, absolutely amazing. It's incredible. What's the title of the book,
Nancy Lyons 31:14
just the title of the book is work like a boss. And I wrote it because and actually the subtitle is a kick in the pants guide to finding and using your power at work. Yeah. And I wrote it because of exactly what we just touched on, you know, this idea that we act like we are victims of work instead of agents of opportunity. You know, we, I think we have this tendency, and I think it was, it was created by boomers, right? It was like the generations before us. And I mean that, like, I'm not even saying like, Okay, we were, I mean, you know, I'm a Gen X or I believe that my parents worked in a place for 30 years, whether they liked it or not, never really felt valued, collected a paycheck and retired and they were never connected to their work. And then they sold us a bag of goods about how you can be whatever you want to be. And, you know, like work isn't a career is an opportunity for fulfillment and, and yet, we took their, their sort of their messaging into the I just picked my career. And, and those two things don't align, right. It's never really felt that purposeful, it's never really, and part of that is because of us, we act as if work is happening to us. Versus we are, you know, these these act, active, engaged, critical, curious agents inside of these organizations, and we can make use of what we observe. We can, you know, we can address what we see, we can collaborate toward improvement together, we can be part of what we need work to be. I think people don't operate that way. They, they, it's just like that woman who I thought was, and I still believe, and we'll figure this out at some point, hopefully, is was very strong, super gifted, a great communicator, had tons of empathy for the people around her. And if I had known she was feeling that way, I would have encouraged her to just say, Hey, I respect your work product, like your deliverables are sometimes just beyond but I don't see you showing up. And I you know, for XY and Z, and I feel like I am cleaning up what you don't engage it, right. I'm the person who gets dumped on when you when you don't show up, because I do regularly. And in order for us to work better together, I need this from you, can you help me? And honestly, I think more people would respond in a healthy way to that than most of us think. But nobody taught us to do that. And, you know, one of the things I say in the book is, we're all encouraged to get these, you know, these college degrees and go on to graduate school, but nobody teaches us how to work and they certainly don't, they don't they don't teach us how to communicate with each other at work. And, you know, it's just this is my job description. This is what's expected of me oh my gosh, that's not my job. And we wonder why we're not moving at the warp speed that everything else is that technology is moving in and you know, that. I mean, people have this expectation of immediacy and and gratification and and we need to change ourselves in order to see work change to our benefit
Dana Dowdell 34:49
is in the follow up question in that situation. Because I'm a big fan of accountability and and encouraging people to own what they say that they're I'm going to do so as is, then the follow up question. And that situation is, how can I support you to show up how I need you to show up?
Nancy Lyons 35:09
Brilliantly articulated? Absolutely. I mean, accountability is the thread that runs through my entire book, because I think we talk a lot about it. But I don't know that people know how to hold each other accountable. I don't think people know what accountability means, and how we ask for it. And what we do, when people are not, I just, I just feel like, you know, there's only two ways of thinking about it, you're either getting your stuff done, and we don't have to hold you accountable, because you simply are, or you're not, and we're waiting for the organization to care to give a shit enough to either reprimand you or or get you out of there. But there's no middle ground. And what we miss there is that personal agency that that desire to hold one another accountable, which goes back to where we started, right? The the idea that it's it's, it's the individuals inside of the cult that perpetuate the bad stuff. And it's those of us inside of the organizations that let stuff slide that don't ask for what we need, that don't feel empowered enough to hold each other accountable, and don't work enough to have relationships where we're safe enough to say, actually, you fell down on that one, I needed you and you weren't there. And that's where I would like to see us go.
Dana Dowdell 36:26
What is what's one thing that someone who works in HR can start doing today now, in their conversations and their actions, how they show up, that can be an incremental change towards a better workplace?
Nancy Lyons 36:43
I think right now, really having one to one conversations with people and a drawing from it, that the research, right the what do people need? What do you need, but I believe that HR has an opportunity. You know, I don't know if you've noticed this, but there are a billion coaches in the world. And the coaches show up, you know, for executives and middle level management, and every you know, if you can't, if you can't do you teach, I guess, I don't know, there's just so many coaches, but where we really need coaching is inside of organizations. And I think HR has an opportunity to demonstrate the behavior they want to see, they have an opportunity to model and get really honest about the behavior, the action, the value that they want people to bring. And when I say to bring to us of space, I'm not even talking about brick and mortar, I'm just saying to bring to their interactions to their relationships at work every single day. And I also believe that HR should do what I believe most of us need to get better at and that is asked for what you want. HR needs to ask people explicitly for what they for what organizations need to really see successful forward motion.
Dana Dowdell 38:16
Nancy You're a fucking fire and I know people like...
Nancy Lyons 38:19
I like you to. I like that you said I'm fucking fire, oh my god,
Dana Dowdell 38:22
I'm just I'm I am like having a full body like reaction about just your insight, and I want to get your book. And I know other people want to connect with you. So where can listeners find you?
Nancy Lyons 38:34
Well, if we start with the book, you can just go to work like a boss.com. And the book is there and all the places you can buy it, you can buy it on the giant online resource that shall not be named, or you could get it straight from the distributor, which is Itasca books. Or you could ask your local independent bookstore to order it for you. You can find me at Nancy lyons.com You can find my company clockwork@klocwork.com. And I'm on all of the socials at nylons. And the reason I'm at nylons is when you see my initial and lions people used to call me when they would see in lines. They'd be like nylons, nylons. And so I took it when I joined Twitter 150 years ago. Now nobody even knows what nylons are. So it works real well.
Dana Dowdell 39:18
Real. I love it. I love it. And Nancy, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Nancy Lyons 39:23
Thanks for having me. It's a great was great conversation.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai