Ep 83 | Empowering Justice Impacted Talent and Fair Chance Futures with Dr. Khalilah "KO" Olokunola

Dr. Khalilah Olokunola, Sr. Advisor, Talentnova, known to many as KO, joins us to share her pivotal role in reimagining human resources for justice-impacted individuals. Her transformative journey from event and set design to spearheading HR innovation demonstrates a steadfast commitment to championing marginalized talent. Through her collaboration with True Colors and establishment of the Disrupt You onboarding program, KO illustrates how HR can serve as a catalyst for genuinely inclusive, purpose-driven, and prosperous workplaces.

The conversation takes a deep dive into the nuances of fair chance hiring, revealing that it's about more than just filling positions—it's about tapping into the often-overlooked potential of those who've faced legal challenges. We explore how companies can perform self-assessments, spot allies within their ranks, and embrace interviewing practices that foster inclusivity. By sharing success stories from corporations like JP Morgan Chase and initiatives such as the Second Chance Business Coalition, we underscore how fair chance hiring not only leads to lower attrition rates but also bolsters a company's culture and morale, all while contributing to the larger social fabric.

Navigating the intricacies of fair chance hiring isn't without its challenges, yet it offers a horizon of hope for many. We delve into strategies for employers to overcome biases and create environments that are truly inclusive, emphasizing the full person framework in recruitment, considering cognitive abilities, motivation, skills, and resilience. Our engagement with KO brings forth compelling anecdotes and practical insights, culminating in a discussion on the power of resilience, skills-based hiring, and the ripple effect such practices have on communities. For those seeking a fresh start, it's not just about a job—it's about the transformative potential of a second chance.

Find, Dr. Khalilah "KO"  Olokunola here:
khalilaholokunola.com
LinkedIn
Do/ Recruit/ How to Find and Keep Great People
Instagram @ Khailahequips
Talentnova.com

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Dana Dowdell - Boss Consulting - @bossconsultinghr - @hrfanatic

Transcript

Dana Dowdell: 0:00

This episode is brought to you by Boss Consulting HR and our downloadable products. We launched downloadable products in 2023, and I'm excited to share them with you through the Quirky HR podcast. If you head over to Boss Consulting HR and navigate to the downloadable section, we'll, of course, make sure that it's linked in the podcast description. There you can find resources for small business owners, hr departments of one, new business owners who are not quite sure where to go to get started, all for a purchase. Our goal is to provide all the resources and tools for small business owners so that you can make sure that you are doing right by your employees and running your HR function appropriately.

Dana Dowdell: 0:51

So, with that, check them out over on Boss Consulting HR and we'll get right into the show. Hey there, welcome back to Quirky HR. I am so excited for our conversation with our guest today because it's something that we've never talked about before on the podcast. So today I'm Khalilah Olokunola by , also known as "KO, and she is the founder and impact architect at Re-Engineering HR, and we're going to talk all about second chance hiring and justice impacted talent, and I can't wait.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 1:34

So, Khalilah, welcome to the podcast oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here today.

Dana Dowdell: 1:40

Likewise. So you have a beautiful career in human resources and I love other consulting founders, so tell us kind of your track into HR and how you started reengineering HR.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 1:54

So it was really by accident. I don't know if you hear that all the time, but I had just transitioned from a career in event and set design for film and TV and I had this burst of remembrance where I told myself that I want, when I was younger, I was going to do things that impacted the lives of people, didn't know what that was, didn't have a definition, and started empowering women using Dr Seuss books, lessons of leadership from Dr Seuss for Powerful Women who Aspire to Lead. And in doing that empowerment, I was booked for a speaking engagement in New York City and there I met a serial entrepreneur and founder of a company called True Colors who was a for-profit organization that was going to hire active rival gang members and justice impacted talent to reduce violence in the community. And we started having this conversation and he said you know, I don't have any proof of concept that something like this will work, that if you provide opportunity and a livable wage to individuals who have been overlooked and untapped, that they would succeed. And I gave him this story and after I gave him the story, he said I want to meet that person. I said well, I'm that person. And so he invited me in to kind of share this story of growing up in Brooklyn and being surrounded and having odds really stacked against you with the team and I shared that story and he said they really enjoyed you. Can you come back and take what you shared with them and create a lesson plan? And so I had been developing lesson plans using Dr Seuss' book, so I developed a lesson plan on going from the block to the boardroom and in that lesson plan it became the foundational components of onboarding. That's called Disrupt you.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 3:37

I contracted with that company for a little over a year, two years and then one day he said I really have this important role in HR because we're ready to go to market and I think you'll be great for it, Dana. Immediately I froze and said absolutely not. It's no way I can be an HR pro. I'm too extroverted, right, really loud, come close to the edge of breaking a rule, and I really don't. I don't have a traditional background, you know, in HR and so it would take a lot of education and sweat equity and time to get me up to speed with what he was asking for and what he needed. And he said I think that you can do it. I agreed to give him six months in this, this preliminary HR role, and I took that time to connect with people that were in HR to listen and learn from them, went and jumped in and took some classes and realized that I had had a career where I did recruiting but it was called executive search firm and reverse work Right, and I had experience with people and what it did is that it helped me create and shape from a different perspective, because I didn't come in the traditional route. I was able to lead from a people first perspective in everything that I did, because I believe that organizations can be people first. I mean sorry, people focus, purpose driven and profit aligned. And a lot of times when you come in the traditional way in HR, you are focused on what you've been taught and really not what you experienced or what your heart says. And so I did that for six months and accepted his role and never looked back and it was the best experience of my life because I can't see myself now not doing HR.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 5:14

I worked for that company for almost a decade and sadly it closed one day unexpectedly because of loss of funding and I spent the next 60 days trying to find the team someplace to land. Remember, we have untapped talent, some of them. This was their first job, so I was hosting pink slip parties where I was inviting employers to come in and to meet and connect with them in a safe space to offer them roles. 75% of the staff was placed and in that process I thought I better find me a job.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 5:44

I was offered a job from a really well-respected organization to apply for the chief people officer job, Patagonia and at that time I just felt like I still had work to do in Wilmington. I wasn't prepared to leave and so I submitted a request for a proposal to a company and they said we loved your proposal, but we only are looking for companies. And so my comment was say less. I went and structured the organization and I called it re-engineering HR, because I knew that what HR is and was didn't have to be reinvented, but it had to be re-engineered and it should be based on the people you're serving and the mission, vision and values of the organization. And I resubmitted and won that proposal alongside a counterpart with the GAP, and that started reengineering HR.

Dana Dowdell: 6:35

I am like blown away. I think that that is one of my favorite things is to learn about how people got into HR, because people come from all different tracks, right? It's not common that I meet people and talk to guests that had a traditional track into HR, where they got a degree and then they, you know, went into. You want a company? I'll give you a company, right, like I'm just going to make it happen.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 7:11

Yeah, let me bet on myself. let me take all these learinings, and creating these blueprints, in a company that not only hired rival gangmembers and justice impacted tallent again active rival gang members and justice impacted talent, but we had traditional pipelines. We needed really talented people to help with brewery operations and the lab and you know, and in finance and at the senior level, and so I had to create a blueprint to merge these populations together and create a culture where we will all focus on the same purpose and so, and create a culture where we will all focus on the same purpose and so, and that just became what we engineer in HR is is how do we create systems, solutions and specialty training based on the organization that we're speaking to?

Dana Dowdell: 7:55

Right, yeah, hr is often looked at as cookie cutter, right? Or, like you know, the bare minimum compliance, but there's so much opportunity there in terms of culture development and talent development that really hits the nail on the head in terms of growth and engagement, right? Yes? So, you had this experience at True Colors about non-traditional people strategies and you have that experience with second chance hiring or justice impacted talent, so can you talk a little bit about that concept and the definition of those concepts?

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 8:33

Yeah. So justice impacted talent is someone who has had an experience with the criminal justice system. You know when you see or hear that terminology doesn't always mean a felony, because data says that one in three Americans have something on their records, so it doesn't have to be a felony. It could just be a charge that ended in a more positive way than others. And so when you think about justice impacted talent, or fair chance hiring or second chance hiring because there's all these terms out there it is providing opportunity to those who are reintegrating back into the community from serving time or that has reintegrated. They do have experience with the justice system, but you're willing to give them an opportunity, regardless of their background.

Dana Dowdell: 9:19

I feel like we've seen a bit of that concept trending. I know SHRM did an initiative to push this and I exist in a state where we had, you know, ban the box legislation. So what does this look like in practice?

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 9:36

Yeah, that's really a good question. I'll share that. I am one of the redesigned developers of the Dave's Killer Bread Foundation cohort training for employers that are looking to build recruitment pipelines, and it looks individualized for each person. There are some foundational components, but it really should be tied into what your organization is looking for and what the specific needs are.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 10:04

A lot of times we think that justice impacted talent should only go in lower level roles, but there is a case that opportunity across the board you can find talent that's been untapped, that have skills that they learned and picked up while serving time, that can translate into your corporate company as well, and so it looks like you doing the self-assessment to see if you are completely prepared.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 10:27

I'm looking to see if we have the people capacity to bring them in, to see if I have any allies and stakeholders who are willing to help me model and shape what this fair chance hiring recruiting looks like. I need to make sure that my interview questions are inclusive, right and equitable when I'm asking questions and I need to consider things like my policies and programs, which things like attendance because of parole check-ins, and the thing about it is that a lot of organizations are hesitant in doing some of this work because they believe they have to supply everything, and that's where you begin to look for strategic partners in your area, which are community-based organizations that offer wraparound services that you can connect to, and so they're helping with things like housing and things like transportation, which could potentially be a barrier, but they're also helping you navigate through this space because they have a track record, and so if you're thinking or considering in your company about building a fair chance hiring pipeline, look at your people your processes, your programs and your partnerships.

Dana Dowdell: 11:31

I feel like there's a bias to this because there's just so much that we don't know right, Like someone has a criminal record or someone got their.

Dana Dowdell: 11:35

I remember once I saw on someone's resume they listed that they got their high school diploma or their GED while being incarcerated right, and it's stuff that I'm not familiar with. So, to kind of help combat the bias a little bit, can we talk about, like, what do we need to know as employers, as HR professionals, to dial back this, this concept of like you know, I can't hire someone that has a criminal history or criminal path? That can help us be a little bit more open to hiring individuals that have been incarcerated and giving them a second chance, right? I mean, I'm a firm believer that work provides so much more than a paycheck and it should provide a sense of purpose and connection and all of those things I think are great environments for anybody, but I imagine for someone that has been incarcerated, that provides an extra layer of support that's really important for their continued growth, right things to combat that bias, I think in three, three pools like education, experience and empowerment.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 12:51

So first, with education, a lot of people that are serving time have the opportunity to educate themselves, not just in traditional certifications but also with college degrees, and so organizations are offering Pell opportunities now, and there was some time when the Ready for Pell stopped for individuals that are serving time to get their associates, their bachelors and masters. And so I'm working with someone currently who's incarcerated but has his master's degree in juvenile justice and education, and so he's coming home already really educated. And so barriers to education while in fact there may be some, there are a pool of people who have been well-educated while serving time behind bars. And then, when we think about experience, I believe that block skills translate into boardroom skills, and we have to begin not just to look at the hard skills but also the soft skills that we need. 93% of companies, I read in a business review believe that without soft skills, that also the soft skills that we need. 93% of companies, I read in a business review believe that without soft skills, that organizations won't succeed. So we don't need people that just are really good at what they do, but people that can pivot in the middle of a problem, and most people that are justice impacted are incredibly resilient right, have the most grit right and are dedicated to the work because they're looking for meaningful opportunity and career roles. And if you provide that, they'll not only stay productive but stay committed.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 14:15

And then empowerment. So a few things. The attrition rate is lowest in this population Among all the populations men, women, degree non-degree. The attrition rate is lowest among people that have been justice impacted and also violence that happens in the workplace doesn't correlate with people who have previously had contact with the justice system. Right. And so when we think about understanding risk, we have to look at the lack of risk. Most organizations, the risk that they take is discriminating against someone because they have a background, not because they play a risk in the workplace. Now there are some roles and barriers in industries like health care and real estate and in finance, but JP Morgan and Chase, which is one of the largest organizations in financial banking, has dedicated 10 percent of their United States hires to justice impacted talent. And when you think about an organization like that doing the work, making that commitment, it's because they piloted a program and saw a track record of success with the individuals that they serve, and so now they're expanded upon it. The Second Chance Business Coalition, which is a coalition of some of the top organizations in the country there's 50 companies now, and everyone from Slack to Gap are also doing this work and so, if you're still hesitant, take a look at the organizations that are already doing it right, and they're doing it not because they had a bad experience, but because they saw impact and they've had a decent experience.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 15:42

And then the next step is that a lot of employees are more inclined to stay at a company that's making impact. You know, we saw with the great resignation and people leaving. It wasn't because of money, it was because they put more value on their values. And so companies who have this increased value set and are offering opportunity and access and an equitable way to untap talent, it boosts the culture of the people internally because they realize they're playing a role. Will they be biased? Yes, we all have some, but it takes education right and mobilizing your entire team in order to be effective in the role.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 16:20

Change management is difficult when you don't provide people enough information, and if you give them those pools, you educate them and tell them about the education of individuals. You highlight the experience and empower them with what you know and what they need, and introduce those stats and put a mirror right not just on them but on the organization, and say this ties into who we are already, because most organizations have these incredible missions, these incredible visions and values. But that tiny component of justice impacted talent is often overlooked. But when they look at themselves, they realize that it's something that they want to do already. And untapped talent although it's classified now as justice impacted a lot of people that are in the workplace are also untapped, but they have the room for capacity and you may have someone in your workplace already that has served time that you just don't know about because you have banned the box.

Dana Dowdell: 17:14

Yeah, I want to get to that kind of point that you may have somebody in your workplace already. But before I ask the question related to that, I want to just ask for employers that are on board with an initiative like this is there anything that they need about gaps, is it common someone will come out of incarceration not being comfortable with technology, escalation of technology at a society, or are there key kind of items that an employer needs to look at to make sure that they're providing that support outside of those other wraparound services that might be available for those coming out of incarceration?

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 17:58

Yeah, 100%, there's always something for everyone. But when someone is reintegrating back into the community and coming to a workplace, workplaces often have its own language set, so there's jargon, and so introducing that jargon and then there could be a technology barrier, and so not single them and singling them out, but looping those things into your onboarding so it becomes part of your standard process is what a lot of companies have done to be more effective. So, thinking about that technology barrier, thinking about getting them up to speak with the language that you use in the terminology for the specific industry that you're in, and then not singling them out or making and tokenizing an individual, because you're doing this work and you just want to highlight by keeping their experience in that background confidential and such a way that it's up to them to share on their own.

Dana Dowdell: 18:52

So to that point. So I exist in a state that has public records that are searchable and I have run into situations with clients where the employer never disclosed that, but maybe the employee eventually disclosed it and so then their fellow coworkers wound up searching for information and it became a point of conflict, and I know how I advise the client, but I'm curious what your thoughts are in terms of employers combating that and creating an environment where all talent feel like they can be safe and their authentic selves.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 19:31

Yeah, I think that it goes back to education, like informing, providing insight, like not just what's happening in the company, but external data and then ways that you're making impact by doing this work. It'll limit people looking and searching or having a shifted perspective if you educate them on the work that you're doing and some of the data that I shared here on the attrition, on the lack of risk in all these areas, people will create their own scenarios if you don't give them a narrative that they can pull from, and so a lot of organizations, if they want to see a shift in models like that or in states like that, it's going to start with you really educating individuals and letting them check their own bias at the door and then, in letting them check their own bias at the door, showing them why this is a good thing and what the value is. We see a lot of organizations that have stretched employees because they are understaffed. What's the new term? The sansdemic right, low workforce shortage, and if you want to increase your pool and not stretch your people, this is a talent pool that you can look at and so giving all this information to them again, providing them insights and then showing them the impact that they're making. You know and that has helped some organizations where there was extreme bias on hiring individuals that have records, especially in places where you can Google search right. We had a and we had a training we were doing.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 21:01

There was a company that said that we just Google search people and see what they've done and we just said don't do that. First of all, in your state it's against the law, right For you to do that. Second of all, you really can't give a background check in some states without a conditional offer on the table, so you don't find out until you've gotten to know the person right and so you've interviewed them. You like what you heard and I'm a big proponent of full person framework and recruiting where you look at the heart, the head, the how and the hand.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 21:29

The head is the cognitive ability to do the job, the heart is the motivating factors and the drive. The hand is the skills and the how is the resilience and grit that they bring to the table, and you discover those things through interviewing. So after you see this full person, you give them a conditional offer if that charge is what decides whether you hire them or not, because it's something that you can't because of the industry, but if it's something that you can, most organizations are willing to give a chance. But if you haven't checked your own bias as a talent acquisition specialist or as an HR pro, then you may be inclined to say no and miss out on the talent pool. So you have to educate your people. You have to equip them to make the right decisions, not from their bias, but from a shared perspective that the organization has pushed out.

Dana Dowdell: 22:16

I feel like I'm having flashbacks of client interactions and if you were to ask me what's one thing that you wish employers did differently, they assign so many assumptions on things that are not based on facts. It's based on bias or their own insecurities. And I remember I had an attorney's office reach out because they were recruiting for a paralegal. They found someone that they really, really, really liked, that had a great experience, great background, and they then looked them up on our state criminal records and this candidate had, I think, a couple of like domestic not domestic, but what's it? What's like the generic disorderly conduct charges kind of things. And so they got nervous. They were like, well, what, you know, what do we do in this case? And I had to have that conversation. I'm like, well, you didn't do a conditional kind of things.

Dana Dowdell: 23:08

And so they got nervous. They were like, well, what do we do in this case? And I had to have that conversation. I'm like, well, you didn't do a conditional offer of employment, so that's a problem. But the second thing I told them I said why don't you ask them about it? Like, give them the opportunity to one verbalize that, yes, they have something that's going to come up on a background check, but then ask them about it. And they did that and it turns out they were in a domestic violence situation. They were having to defend themselves, they had a very tumultuous relationship with the next partner and that's what led to all of these charges. And if they had just stayed on the track of their assumptions it would have potentially been a problematic employment hiring process, but then they would have lost out on really good talent.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 23:55

Yeah, it's 100, but that's why it's so important to have a standard operating procedure that everybody can walk through and you're not winging it because you can't win. If you wing it right, you'll make all these mistakes and work through your own assumptions, and that talking about that gap and sharing your experience when you're being interviewed is really a difficult moment. A lot of employers may not ever see it like this, but looking for a job and being hired is an emotional experience for someone that's been impacted. They're coming home and they're looking for hope that there is opportunity for them to change their lives or do better. And when individuals have the confidence that they can change their household, they'll believe in turn that they can change their community. And so that's why it's so important that when you're interviewing, you keep those things in mind that this is not just an individual that has worked all their lives they're coming home. That this is not just an individual that has worked all their lives. They're coming home. There may be gaps that they feel that they have to explain, but be willing to spark that conversations, because conversations always challenge what you believe about an individual and a process.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 25:00

I mentioned Talent Nova. One of the key components of this tech platform is to equip those justice-impacted talent to be able to talk about the gap in their resumes with confidence. How do you do that? How do you translate your skills, because a lot of times you're looking for a job with another barrier the tools that you need to get the job and so this platform was created with that in mind. How do you give the tools that justice impacted talent needs to prepare them for the job, not just with information, but also inspiration, so you can get your resume and AI or boosted, create a couple of other? You can translate your skills. You have access to a live coach and you also hear video interaction on how to answer those really difficult questions.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 25:47

Tell me about yourself, tell me about your last job I don't have a last job, right or maybe I can explain what I did in the mess hall and how that translates to this role, and then eventually adding a component for employers, which I think is important, like employers should go see some of the barriers that employees face and maybe get that understanding. But I also believe that employers are looking for tools and educational processes that they can tap into to help them facilitate fair chance hiring. If you don't understand and no one's told you, then you'll create your own process again, and so we have to tell people, we have to encourage them to build standard operating procedures and to put together a recruitment plan that's in line with your organization's needs and values again, and then encourage your team to just continue to operate through it and look at it every six months to reiterate or make changes. If something definitely isn't working, or if something really is working, double click there and expand upon it.

Dana Dowdell: 26:47

Yeah, I, like I mentioned before, like I don't know much about individuals that have criminal backgrounds, but what I do know is that for humans, sometimes talking about your background is is a shame. There's so much shame behind it, and so I look at somebody who's willing to to communicate that shame and explain it. That is a, that's a soft skill, a level of humility that I think is so invaluable to the workplace, because what that tells me is that if someone makes a mistake, or they have a question, or they're not sure, they're going to be up for bringing that to someone's attention, which is so important. So I just I think we I wish so much that we place more value on that than these biases and these assumptions that we have.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 27:33

Yeah, there's a hard truth about soft skills right, we need them in every communication. Teamwork, right, like language is leading, like how you interact and talk to people can change the trajectory of any situation or circumstance. Resilience, when the entire company shut down and we all had to work from home by force. And then when we went through this experience with George Floyd and we were working through DEI initiatives and trying to figure out how we can create more equity in our workplaces, you have people who were really good in finance but couldn't pivot in the problem. You have people that were really good at maybe doing grounds work but didn't know how to operate when they were faced with the challenge. And so, looking at individuals that aren't just good at what they do, but they have what you need to withstand some of the changes that happens and this is why you're an HR pro we think shift in human resources. When things shift in the world, we are completely responsive and we have to be in real time and we need team members that can also do that as well, because companies go through challenges, companies go through changes. An example is the company I worked for shut down on the Wednesday. Friday was our last check. What do you do? We have to find a way to pivot. I need to make sure the team lands somewhere, or companies are experiencing layoffs right now. What do you do when you are the only survivor Survivor syndrome is real right. Or how do you help your team navigate moving forward?

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 29:05

And so we think about hiring people just looking at the things that they can do with their hand or their track record or their degrees. And I don't want to go into the conversation about skills-based hiring, but there is a big case for skills-based hiring, right, what you can, not just what you degreed for, but what you can do, similar to the conversation about the medical assistant not needing a degree. But there are really talented people without the paperwork. Do we give them opportunity or do we withhold opportunity from them? And a lot of those people are justice impacted talent, who've come home, who have experience.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 29:41

I know a young man that spent 10 years in prison and all he did was cook in the kitchen and couldn't find a cooking job. How does that happen? Oh my God, because he wasn't certain. Well, he went back and got his ServSafe certification, because there's a HOAPS program now for people reintegrating where you can get your ServSafe even before you come home. But that was a big challenge and it was in part because he had a record and a lot of the owners were concerned about interacting with customers or what customers would say if they found out that they were providing people opportunity. That had lived experience, and so he ended up finding a job. This man worked for some of the top restaurants and people and today he has his own restaurant. When you open up the door and give access and opportunity to one individual, it causes a ripple effect.

Dana Dowdell: 30:29

I feel like there's so many stories and anecdotes that we could share about the success of second chance hiring. Justice impacted talent. When we take away the bias, take away the assumption, there's so much potential there, so I'm incredibly grateful for this conversation. Before we wrap it up, I want you to just mention your literature, your books. I'm enamored anytime someone has the bandwidth to write a book, because I don't even have the bandwidth to write a blog post half the time, so it's so admirable. Tell us a little bit about your books.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 31:04

Yeah, it's called Do Recruit how to Find and Keep Great People. A lot of times we invest a lot of money in recruiting but don't think about retention, and so it kind of helps you through that whole process. I encourage people to use a full person framework, like I mentioned here today the hard hand, how and head. I also talk to you about using things like love and empathy, kindness and hope and there's research behind it as strategic assets when building out your program. I talk a lot about the KIND Code, which is an acronym for Knowledge Inspires, new Direction, using data to drive and design systems for your workplace, because you listen to your people first and shape second and then finally looking at the platforms you're putting your job descriptions on. So we have platform analysis conversations in there Are the people you're looking for on those platforms.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 31:54

We know when you think about LinkedIn, you're not just looking for a job, you're looking for community. Indeed is gonna offer an opportunity just for jobs, but give you an assessment opportunity to dig deeper and so just determining so that you can save dollars and increase impact when you're recruiting. But this book is really not just based on my experience working in True Colors and recruiting, but just based on the re-engineered process, because we've had to make a lot of pivotal changes in the last five years and I put all those blueprints and those learnings in this book not just how to find, but how do you keep the people that you have so that you don't have to face a low workforce shortage or you don't have to stretch the capacity too much of the people that you already have. And then, finally, how do you make sure, while you're deploying all these great things for people, you take care of yourself as an HR pro Amazing, and so you said that that comes out in the US on June 4th.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 32:46

June 4th available for pre-release now at Barnes Noble's. And yeah, and shameless plug book signing on June 8th in Wilmington, North Carolina, if anybody listening is in the Carolinas, and yeah, so it's exciting. And no judgment UK Publishing House disease or S's okay, just.

Dana Dowdell: 33:11

Amazing, amazing. Where can listeners find you, connect with you, learn more about the book and all that you do?

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 33:17

Yeah, so I'm Khalilah Equips Everywhere, and so you can find me at Khalilah Equips Everywhere, and LinkedIn is a great place to find me. I'm usually there most of the time, so yeah.

Dana Dowdell: 33:31

Amazing Khalilah. Thank you so much for being on Quirky HR and providing insight into something that we haven't touched on yet. I'm so grateful for your knowledge and expertise.

Khalilah Olokunola "KO": 33:40

Awesome. Thank you for having me. Pleasure to be here.