This week we are joined by Major Kevin Kane of the Connecticut Army National Guard and Director of Enterprise Systems at Wesleyan University. We discuss bridging the gap between military service and civilian employment, sometimes simultaneously. In this episode Major Kane shares how to look beyond a service members battle hardened resume, to the soft skills underneath, and the potential benefits to employers.
Transitioning from the battlefield to the business field comes with its unique set of challenges. Kevin explains the difficulties of balancing "Three Buckets", military, civilian work, and family. Beyond that we touch on some potential impacts of others in the workplace.
The episode is layered with practical advice and resources that support veterans in making their transition a celebrated chapter of their career as well as recognising By the end of this episode, you'll understand why creating a workplace that celebrates the service of its veteran employees is not just a noble act but a strategic advantage.
You can find Major Kane on Linkedin here : https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinlkanect/
Connect with us:
Email the podcast.
Join us on Instagram - we appreciate your support!
Dana Dowdell - Boss Consulting - @bossconsultinghr - @hrfanatic
This week we are joined by Major Kevin Kane of the Connecticut Army National Guard and Director of Enterprise Systems at Wesleyan University. We discuss bridging the gap between military service and civilian employment, sometimes simultaneously. In this episode Major Kane shares how to look beyond a service members battle hardened resume, to the soft skills underneath, and the potential benefits to employers.
Transitioning from the battlefield to the business field comes with its unique set of challenges. Kevin explains the difficulties of balancing "Three Buckets", military, civilian work, and family. Beyond that we touch on some potential impacts of others in the workplace.
The episode is layered with practical advice and resources that support veterans in making their transition a celebrated chapter of their career as well as recognising By the end of this episode, you'll understand why creating a workplace that celebrates the service of its veteran employees is not just a noble act but a strategic advantage.
You can find Major Kane on Linkedin here : https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinlkanect/
Connect with us:
Email the podcast.
Join us on Instagram - we appreciate your support!
Dana Dowdell - Boss Consulting - @bossconsultinghr - @hrfanatic
This episode is brought to you by Boss Consulting HR and our downloadable products. We launched downloadable products in 2023 and I'm excited to share them with you through the Quirky HR podcast. If you head over to Boss Consulting HR and navigate to the downloadable section, we'll, of course, make sure that it's linked in the podcast description. There you can find resources for small business owners, hr departments of one, new business owners who are not quite sure where to go to get started, all for purchase. Our goal is to provide all the resources and tools for small business owners so that you can make sure that you are doing right by your employees and running your HR function appropriately. With that, check them out over on Boss Consulting HR and we'll get right into the show.
Dana Dowdell:Hello and welcome back to Quirky HR. We have taken a long break, but I'm excited to be back for 2024 and we're starting the year off with a really good conversation. We are joined by Kevin Kane, a member of the Connecticut Army National Guard and the Director of Enterprise Services at Wesleyan University. Kevin, welcome to Quirky HR.
Kevin Kane:Welcome. Thank you for having me.
Dana Dowdell:Thanks for being here. We are going to chat about military experience, and civilian employment is the overarching topic that I want to touch on, because I know that I've experienced in my career never quite understanding how someone's military experience can apply to civilian employment, and it's always been challenging for me to match it up. But there's a lot more under this umbrella that I'm sure we'll get to, but before we do, can you tell us a little bit about your service experience and how you transitioned into civilian or back and forth?
Kevin Kane:Sure, I did a traditional college, went away to college for four years for computer science and started working in IT when I got out. At the time, serving in the military was always something that I wanted to do but never really signed the dotted line or raised my right hand. It got to be the point where I was 26, 27. I was like, hey, if I don't do this now, I'm never going to do it. Potentially, At 27, I joined Connecticut Army National Guard. I'd already been pretty well established in an IT career at that point. So I basically took a year off of work while I went through the training pipeline and all that kind of stuff. And since then I've been in the Guard for it'll be 13 years this March and have been at Wesleyan for 12 years. So those two experiences coincide for the vast majority of my adult life at this point.
Dana Dowdell:So, before we start recording, I said I don't really understand much about military experience, but what I did say was that leave it to someone in the military to be early for an interview, and so I think there's lots of qualities within military candidates that are applicable for every single industry, no matter what career path or field. Can you speak to some of those soft skills that you acquired while in service that are applicable in civilian employment?
Kevin Kane:For sure. So being punctual, obviously some of the military very much ingrains in you from the very first moment you joined. So that's obviously a skill. People take individual responsibility. It's a pretty core tenant that the military kind of ingrains in folks. So taking ownership of the tasks that they have, just like those, the idea that you have that if you're given a task, that you own it and that you will complete it or let your relief know that you need more help, or something of that nature. So that's big. The other thing is that, being in the military, if you're in long enough which is usually like three or four years.
Kevin Kane:You eventually end up in a leadership position where you're in charge of other people. So there's no real way to kind of avoid that. In the military, it doesn't matter if you're enlisted or an officer. At some point you will lead and manage other folks. So there's a lot of prep and training around getting a person ready to manage people, whether it's two or three or a hundred or 200. There's a lot of that focus to build leadership skills, leadership qualities.
Dana Dowdell:Yeah, do you have a team now at Westland?
Kevin Kane:I do Yep.
Dana Dowdell:Have you noticed or experienced a difference in kind of the leadership expectations versus leading people in military, versus leading people in a civilian capacity?
Kevin Kane:Yeah. So this is actually a topic that I've talked with some of my folks on my team a few times. I don't think it's too different. I think in the military you have a rank structure that you can rely on. On some level you can say I'm giving you a lawful order, you have to do this. But if you rely on that in the military, that only kind of works once or twice and then people kind of write you off because you still need to ask your people to do things that make sense. You still need to have good emotional intelligence and just ask for things in the right way or lead people and kind of get them to want to do the things that you need them to do.
Kevin Kane:Basically, so I don't think the methods are all that different between civilian and military. There is a lot of crossover there. You do have in the military you do have that extra. That default of like my rank can help get you something. But at the end of the day, effective leaders are people that know how to motivate folks. They're willing to do things. They're willing to do the things they're asking their people to do and they reward folks for the good work that they do and people feel appreciated and all of those things kind of go together either whether you're a civilian leader or military leader like those are the core tenants. I think that get you ahead in that space.
Dana Dowdell:I think that's amazing to think about, because I often see leaders who are put in leadership positions who are really not given the tools, resources, training and support to be a good leader or be a better leader, and so to know that they're giving you all this training and support and resources and development to instill in you, that's amazing.
Kevin Kane:Yeah, and in fact, like a lot of military training, you're expected to be able to do the job of your next supervisor and their supervisor. You're supposed to be able to do it two levels up at any point in time. And this is more like a combat philosophy If someone goes down, you're like next man up. You're supposed to take over that job and ensure that it succeeds. You're supposed to understand the mission and the requirements, the next level and two levels up so you can potentially help affect that. So it's kind of like they're prepping you for that day one in the military.
Dana Dowdell:Yeah that's amazing, that's great, that's a fantastic thing, and I've actually never really thought about it that way. I've always thought of military experience, being punctual, taking direction, that type of stuff, those soft skills but I didn't realize there were such a leadership component, so it's really helpful. So I know that your career path was a little bit different than others, where you went to college first and then did service. Can you speak to candidates who are leaving a branch of service and going up to the civilian world? Do they get a lot of support and services in terms of career transition?
Kevin Kane:They do so when you're leaving active duty. There's a number of programs that are available to folks, like career coaching, help with resumes. They'll do just a number of programs. I know I'd miss them if I tried to list them all. When I was coming off of a deployment they kind of go through some of that even though I was already going back to a job. They give you the same kind of training and resources that you'd get if you were an active duty soldier who was getting out of the army. They kind of treated it the same way. So we got to see some of that stuff. I would say it's kind of like it's good but it's probably not as effective as it could be, unfortunately. It's kind of odd.
Kevin Kane:Like a kid who went into the military, let's say at 17 or 18, 17 year olds whose parents signed allowed them to get into the military. They go in for four years. The only thing in their adult life for any work experience is the military and then they're trying to get a civilian job after that For them. It's a pretty steep hill for them to climb because the military kind of takes care of a lot of things that you don't really have to think about as a civilian. They potentially never had to make a doctor's appointment If they were sick. They would just get up in the morning and go to sick call. They never had to apply for a job or interview for a job, because there isn't that process.
Kevin Kane:In the military. You either get promoted or not and you get assigned to an available position based on your rank and your job. It's just a different world. So if you've been there for a long time let's say you've been there for 10, 15, 20 years and then you're going to the civilian world for your first time and it's a pretty steep learning curve, a steep challenge, and I've noticed that for some folks they do a really good job of selling their military experience to what they can provide in the civilian world and for other folks it's harder. So yeah, it's definitely challenging. There is a lot of programs. I'm not sure how effective they are, but I know they're working on them all the time. They're always improving and they're always adding more programs like that. Just because it's a big, you know, there's always people leaving the military and everyone experiences the same kind of problem when they do so.
Dana Dowdell:Sure, so, when we're looking at our resume of someone who has, you know, strictly military experience, what are some you know things that we can maybe look for that will help us translate some of that experience to civilian world?
Kevin Kane:Yeah. So I think, like, like a lot of the military jobs, like let's, let's take infantry right as a, as an example, right, these are the folks that are, you know, literally, you know combat arms type stuff, you know they're, they're gonna be, you know shooting guns and and learning how to, you know, take a bunker, or you know.
Dana Dowdell:I think that's what we think of like. When I think of when I see military experience, I'm like if they are, you know they are on the front lines, but there there's so much more.
Kevin Kane:Right, exactly, exactly. So you know like if that person had been in for ten years doing that, they might have been a squad leader. Let's say, we're there in charge of seven other folks. So not only are they a charge of those seven folks during like a combat operation, but like in between that, like they are, you know tracking, you know they're medical readiness, they're helping them. You know make appointments, do the things they need to do, they're helping them manage their career. They're probably involved in Teaching hundreds and hundreds of classes over the course of their time there.
Kevin Kane:They came up with training programs, you know, to get folks ready for that kind of stuff. They managed, required training for them to have computer access, potentially. You know like they would have done you know All kinds of just like administrative type tasks that you wouldn't associate with military, um, necessarily, but they would have been tracking all that stuff and helping their people out and they would have essentially been a Middle manager and I would put that person up against anyone who, let's say, was a, you know a manager. And like a factory where they had, you know like seven or eight folks on an assembly line or in a distribution center, you know Like someone who is in charge of, like you know, I don't know the, the loading dock or whatever. You know, like Someone who's in charge of folks who Did, you know, construction type work like general contractor. They do, like a lot of those folks had project experience on some level, you know.
Dana Dowdell:I was gonna say like project management.
Kevin Kane:Yeah, for sure, you know for sure. And there's actually like there's actually like a military program where they they get like they'll pay for you to do certifications or whatever. And project management is one of the ones that are is very common in that space because, you know ever, you know pretty much everyone in the military has gotten to that point. Let's say, is a small leader or above has done some kind of project management, so they've met the requirements for the actual like Time-doing projects. They just need the formal training and then they can go for a certification or something.
Dana Dowdell:So that's pretty common transition, right there and then in terms of like rank, you know, I see a lot of resumes where someone will put their rank, or you know a A position where it's you know, I don't, I literally have no idea what it is. Is there a place for employers to to find resources to understand what that is, aside from interviewing the candidate?
Kevin Kane:Um, I Don't know if any that's like a specific resource, but what I've tried to do when I highlight my military experience on my resume or I've helped, like Other soldiers have looked at some of their resumes and tried to help them out is, um, is I try to get them to put like an equivalency, you know, or like an example equivalency of what that means on the resume, like right next to what that position is. So like if they're, you know, if they're a platoon leader, let's say, you know, like a lieutenant and a platoon leader, you know, I try to get them to put like, okay, they were in charge of 40 people and they were in charge of however many dollars of the equipment that they had to maintain, and then, like you know, give like essentially a couple bullet points on that of like what kind of things they did, but get rid of all the military use from that. Just you have it. Explain like, hey, you know I, I had 10 vehicles that keep maintained, you know. Or I had, you know, you know 30 people underneath me and you know what. Try to keep it like that.
Kevin Kane:You know some I've seen some like military resume writing workshops where they're like put awards on there and I'm like you know the civilian world has no idea of like what that award means, like you know Whether an achievement medal is better than a, you know, accommodation medal or whatever like that you know and that just adds line noise, you know, I think the resume is so I don't recommend that people do that. You know, I usually say you know, like put what your job was like, you know From the military, and then have like a couple bullet points underneath that. That translates it to you know the civilian world, or just have hard numbers and and kind of put down like what that level of responsibility is.
Dana Dowdell:I think that's fantastic, because we give that advice when someone's writing a non civilian resume to you. Know, if you're a marketing person, what type of marketing budget were you responsible for? If you're in fundraising, how much? How much fundraising dollars did you bring in? So I think that's fantastic. I Don't know if you can speak to this, so if you can't, that's absolutely fine. But I sometimes see on resumes someone will put honorably discharged Mm-hmm. Can you tell us what that means?
Kevin Kane:Yeah, sure, so there's. When you get discharged from military, there's a category like a characterization, I think they call it of of your service. So Honorable is like you know you serve honorably. There's no like the military would take you back theoretically if you wanted to go back in and Anything other than anything other than honorable in theory there's like Certain organizations or entities that could decide not to hire you based on that. It's really more when it really matters is federal employment.
Kevin Kane:Like if you haven't dishonorable discharge or an other than honorable discharge, like you can't get hired by the federal government. You know like you have to have an honorable discharge in order to do that. I actually don't know legally if, like in the state of Connecticut, if a private employer could look at it in that same way that the federal government does. So don't quote me on that. And if you get a dishonorable discharge, that's like it can be functionally equivalent of having a felony on your record in some cases. You know Like you could in theory not be able to own firearms like there's like there'd be background check consultations for it. Those are very rare. Like a disarmful discharge is very rare. Like generally it's something that you know a Person committed a crime on active duty and then was kicked out for whatever reason. You know, I've never I've never seen one in 13 years, the Connecticut National Guard. I've never seen disarmful discharge from the guard, so, which is a good thing.
Dana Dowdell:Yeah, that is a good thing. Okay, so we have a candidate with military background. We've hired them day one. You know, what do we need to know with them as an employee now in terms of supporting them, training them, helping them onboard acclimate to civilian employment?
Kevin Kane:So I think I think some of it is just like a good. A good thing to do would be to have kind of like a sponsor for them at the company that they're gonna work for. That can kind of help them understand some of the onboarding things and this. This might be something that your HR department might do anyway as part of the onboarding process for anyone. But I think in in the sense of bringing someone who's like completely new to civilian, civilian world, it's super effective. Generally the military does this.
Kevin Kane:When you go to a new unit, anyways, it's like a very common thing. Like you you get like a you know a person who kind of like takes you around and shows you the unit and you meet, like keep people at the unit or whatever, and we have like a formalized process for it where you know you'd like meet you know you know your first line supervisor who would then like Take you to like meet your platoon leader and then meet your company commander and like all that stuff. So like it would be like you know a person who's doing orientation for you that would kind of show you the ropes and show you the key players of the organization and kind of like Be welcomed at that organization by those folks. So I think that you know, in some ways a person who'd been a military for a while would probably be used to something of that nature when they're like, if they PCS to a new duty location, there'd probably be programs and onboarding involved where they would be like kind of shown the ropes of the place and there'd be There'd be efforts made to make it be welcoming, you know. So I would say that pattern is probably great, you know, to get you know to which is good, I think for anyone who gets hired in the company is to kind of get the ropes of what's going on the company, meet key people there and just have someone that they could, that could be a person who's not going to be a military for a while they could, they could talk to and ask questions like hey, like you know how do I do x, y and z, or ask an informal question before they take it to like their manager or you know, or HR you know, or finance or whatever the department is, you know Someone who they could kind of bounce some stuff off of and try to.
Kevin Kane:You know, get, get the answers before you know People don't want to like look like they don't know what they're doing, so, like a friend, you know.
Dana Dowdell:Yeah, and so that very much mirrors how training is done.
Kevin Kane:Yeah, I mean yeah, well, in the unit stuff I've been in we have a program like that.
Kevin Kane:So, like a new person comes in, like we get them right out of basic training or something, like they go meet their first line leader and they get like a sign like you know a person who like takes them around to like key people in the organization and Like they have like this little piece of paper and like we actually like sign it, like oh yeah, you've talked to me, you know now, and then like they'll introduce themselves and they'll like no, like oh, this is my company commander, this is my first sergeant.
Kevin Kane:That which is kind of like you know, think of like your CEO and you're at a company level. It's like your CEO and your CFO or something you know. So go around and meet those folks like obviously you don't need to have it like these cookie-cutters, that like we kind of have it. You know we have like a process where that that paper goes into their file, but but it's helpful because they like they walk around, they get welcomed, they meet folks, they feel like they're part of the organization, you know like right from day one. And then you know they see those folks around.
Dana Dowdell:They know, like, who that person is and you can ask a question, or you know, or whatever and then time commitment Between, like being active military reserves, nonactive for an employer to you know, know what the time commitment is and potential time out of work. Can you speak to a little, a little bit to that?
Kevin Kane:Yeah, sure, so. So like I'll talk about like the reserve slash guard experience, like so, if you're, if you're like a dual, like hey, I'm an employee of Wesleyan University and I'm also in the Connecticut Guard, like what can Wesleyan expect? So the, you know the, the whole thing is like you know, one week in a month, two weeks a year. You know, like everyone's heard that, that slogan, that's more or less true. You know there's a little bit of extra time. You know there that is not really accounted for in that like I I tend you know generally two meetings a month that are related to, you know, planning for upcoming training or what you know A bunch of tasks to have to happen between between training assemblies. So there's like additional meetings Also. That, like one week in a month, two weeks a year, is kind of like the bare minimum. Like certain training years are heavier than that. So you might have, like your, your summer training might be three weeks that year, or you know two weeks one year or whatever. And as a general rule, like deployments now are kind of rare, you know so like in theory, like every few years, just like your unit could technically be deployable but you know whether or not you get a deployment right now is, you know, pretty, pretty low chances.
Kevin Kane:So I was. I was deployed from in 2020, yeah, 2021. So I was away from work for Gosh. It was like something like 14 or 15 months total time away from work. Now that was also because we actually got called up for like COVID response and then I came back to work for like two months when I went to deployment. So that was kind of odd. Like most of the times you spend the army, deployments are like nine months, so you'd have like a month beforehand of training and like a month at the end of leave essentially. So really, like 11 months is kind of like the average. I would say. If you just for like an average soldier, if who is going to go on a deployment be 11 months away, and then you have that one week, two weeks a year where you're also taking that off for your training.
Dana Dowdell:Sure. And then family spouses of military employees or the spouses your employee. We look at FMLA and Extendency Leave. Can you speak to the not I don't want to say burden, but what a spouse might be experiencing before their significant other is deployed or having to go into service or something like that?
Kevin Kane:Yeah, sure. So obviously it's very hard and, like for the service member, they're pulled in like a number of different directions, right. So, like you know, like we kind of I sometimes talk about this with other folks about having like three buckets, like I've got my, I've got my family bucket that I have to keep filled, and I've got, you know, my employer that I have to keep happy because they keep the roof over my head. And then I also have, you know, the bucket of, like you know, I'm also serving and a member of the guard, so I have to keep them happy too. So, balance, you know you can't really give any one of those 100% attention at any point in time, because you know you just can't, you know, because you can't, you can't neglect, you know, the other, the other two, at the expense of one. So so it's hard.
Kevin Kane:And you know, during that time when you're about to deploy or or you're, or you're about to come back, it's, I think, especially hard for the family members because service members like feel like I know, for me, like I felt super obligated to get a bunch of stuff done right before I left, you know, at work, because I didn't want to leave work in a large right.
Kevin Kane:At the same time, like you know, the family is like, hey, like can you take some time off so we can like spend some time together before you're gone for a really long time, right? And so you have like those two things, like you know, basically fighting against each other and at the same time, you know, like you know, for this last deployment they were, you know, like they wanted me on orders earlier, even, you know, in Connecticut, so I could help, you know, get the unit ready to go. You know just in the position I was in. It made sense. So they wanted, they wanted me on even earlier and I was like, well, I was, like you know, like there's a lot to juggle there, basically. So, and obviously, like you know, the family sometimes prayers to run of that. You know, I think I did a better job at family balance on the way back, on the way on coming home, than I did on the way going out.
Dana Dowdell:I think it's. It sounds to me just like the understanding that you are an employee, but you are so much more than just an employee of that company. Right, you have all these other commitments and, and you know, people that are relying on you and to give a little bit of grace, right, right as possible.
Kevin Kane:For sure, for sure, yeah. And like at the same time, like when, when, when I was coming back, you know I had like so much leave saved up from the military. So like I essentially was off for like a month-ish when I got home to like reintegrate with the family before I went back to work, but like I was getting anxious because I was like I haven't been at work in a really, really long time. You know, like I want to go back. You know because, like, even though, even if, like you know, even even if I was really enjoying that time and I needed that time like in the back of your head you're always anxious.
Kevin Kane:You're like, well, work lived without me for a year. Like, do they do they actually need me? Like are they going to realize they don't need me? You know what I mean. Like not that, not that you know that would actually be the case. But like you have that anxiety in your head, you know, and you're like, hey, I've done, I've done something else for a whole year. Do I even remember my old job? You know, like you know. So I remember going back and being super anxious about like re-learning what I did and like wanting to do a good job and like just throwing myself into work in a way that I probably hadn't in like three or four years before that, because, like you know, I was trying to prove myself over again.
Dana Dowdell:Sure. Coming back in. So can I can. Did Wesleyan do anything different when you returned after that year to kind of reacclimate you to work?
Kevin Kane:Yeah, I mean, I have a super understanding boss and his boss were awesome in helping me get kind of re-accommodated and the expectations were like it wasn't like I show back up day one and they were expecting me to be the same person I was like a year ago. They super understanding, they made a ton of allowances to kind of help me reintegrate and help me get back into things, which was obviously like that took all the stress off. After being back for like two weeks I realized like I'm not in the hot seat. The second I'm back and I can re-accommate.
Dana Dowdell:You have to re-prove yourself all over again.
Kevin Kane:Yeah, and like re-accomming my team realizing I didn't really skip a beat with them was great, and also like being understanding, knowing that someone essentially had stepped up to do a lot of the things that I had done while I was gone, and like seeing how that person had grown tremendously while I was away and seeing all that kind of stuff like helped, I think.
Kevin Kane:And that's actually something that like when the veteran comes back from a deployment and they come back to work, usually the focus is like very much on them. It's like, oh, thank you for your service, and like there's a little bit of this excitement that you're back and I think it's really important not to lose in the shuffle that like someone was picking up that slack while you're gone, potentially more than just one person picking up that slack while you're gone. So like making sure that those folks are recognized about essentially the same as the veteran is returning, because like you don't want them to have resentment that, hey, we did this person's job, but they're the ones who are like getting all the accolades when they come home or when they come back to work.
Kevin Kane:So I think that's like a huge thing to remember and I think like if you find yourself in a situation where a person leaves for a long time, make sure that you're recognizing and rewarding the folks that are picking up that slack while that person is gone. So that way, reintegration is good for everyone, not just the military service member.
Dana Dowdell:Fantastic. Any final thoughts for HR professionals or employers to really do better at integrating service members into their workforce hiring, recruiting.
Kevin Kane:No, I think kind of the biggest thing, because I've seen a lot of folks have great relationships with their employers while serving and I've seen tons of folks have terrible relationships with their employers while serving.
Kevin Kane:And I think the key thing is like communication from both ends clearly communicating like when your training is, like what the obligations actually are. Communicating as early as possible so your employer can make like shift changes and do whatever they need to do well in advance. Being proactive, like if you're the service member, you should be proactive about that and try to help your employer solve that problem rather than just be like it's on you. And at the same time, I think it's helpful if the employer kind of understands, like what are the legal requirements for what this person's entitled to, and just kind of work with them, maybe prod them a little bit, because they're going to be nervous. A lot of folks, especially if they're early career, they're going to be super nervous about telling an employer like, hey, I'm entitled to this benefit or I'm entitled to this X, y and Z, because they're afraid this is going to be like some reprisal or some repracussions.
Kevin Kane:And so I think, being ahead of it, we have a great HR department where I work so we're super accommodating. They understood what the requirements were for them and all that stuff and kind of helped me out and I just made sure that because of that, I was super proactive about making sure they had everything early. So I would say that's the biggest thing like communication. If you have a service member who's currently serving, just help them out with that communication, encourage them to be proactive, understand the law, yeah.
Dana Dowdell:Amazing Kevin. Thank you so much for your insight and for your information and guidance on this topic.
Kevin Kane:Thank you.