Ep 73 | Burnout, Alternative Work Arrangements and Leadership Accountability with Stephanie Tishler
Oct 27, 2023
Dana Dowdell
Imagine a world where your HR practices are fine-tuned to prevent burnout and promote leadership accountability. That's precisely what we're exploring on this episode of Quirky HR, with the assistance of the inimitable Stephanie Tishler, powerhouse behind Tishler Coaching Services. Stephanie’s diverse professional journey, her transition from advertising to working at home for the great Oprah Winfrey, makes her the perfect accomplice for this deep dive. We traverse through the dynamic landscape of the labor market, discussing the seismic shifts brought about by the pandemic and how employers are attempting to pace with it.
Ever wondered about the power of open-ended questions or the concept of stay interviews? We unravel these concepts and more, even dabbling in the interesting study of Love Languages and their application in the workplace. As we scrutinize the motif of motivation, the discussion takes an unexpected turn towards exit interviews. Perhaps an underused tool, but one filled with potential to provide priceless feedback for HR managers. We promise you an episode brimming with insights, as Stephanie shares her wisdom and even provides details on how you can avail her services. So, don your headphones and get ready for a journey of discovery and learning.
Imagine a world where your HR practices are fine-tuned to prevent burnout and promote leadership accountability. That's precisely what we're exploring on this episode of Quirky HR, with the assistance of the inimitable Stephanie Tishler, powerhouse behind Tishler Coaching Services. Stephanie’s diverse professional journey, her transition from advertising to working at home for the great Oprah Winfrey, makes her the perfect accomplice for this deep dive. We traverse through the dynamic landscape of the labor market, discussing the seismic shifts brought about by the pandemic and how employers are attempting to pace with it.
Ever wondered about the power of open-ended questions or the concept of stay interviews? We unravel these concepts and more, even dabbling in the interesting study of Love Languages and their application in the workplace. As we scrutinize the motif of motivation, the discussion takes an unexpected turn towards exit interviews. Perhaps an underused tool, but one filled with potential to provide priceless feedback for HR managers. We promise you an episode brimming with insights, as Stephanie shares her wisdom and even provides details on how you can avail her services. So, don your headphones and get ready for a journey of discovery and learning.
Hey, quirky HR listener, it's Dana. I wanted to take a minute before we jump into this episode and just say thank you. This podcast was an idea that I had a couple years ago, and it took me a little bit to actually get the guts to make it happen from idea to publishing the first episode and so I really just wanted to say thank you for listening. If you've listened to one episode or all of them, I'm just really grateful for the traction that this podcast has gained over the last almost a year, which is wild to think about. I also wanted to remind you that if you're a fan of the podcast, it helps it to subscribe on whatever platform you listen to it on. It also is really helpful if you can follow us on Instagram or Facebook. So on Instagram, we're at it's Just Business Podcast and on Facebook we're at it's Just Business Podcast and coaching. And then, lastly, it helps the podcast if you can share this with someone.
Dana Dowdell:
There are hundreds of thousands of people who work in human resources or who work in operations and do some human resources, and if you find value in any episodes that you're listening to and wanna pass this along to a colleague or a peer or a coworker or a fellow student if you're in school, that can just help this podcast reach more people. So any and all support I am entirely grateful for, and if you just wanna stay a listener, that's great too. So I wanted to thank you again and thank you for making this fun little idea that I had in my head actually something that people enjoy. Now we'll get onto the show. Welcome back to Quirky HR. We are joined today by Stephanie Tischler. She is the owner of Tischler Coaching Services and we're gonna talk career transition, the concept of work, the concept of skill sets and looking at them differently, kind of all high level HR stuff. So, stephanie, welcome to Quirky HR.
Stephanie Tishler:
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Dana Dowdell:
Thank you for being here. So you own a coaching business but prior to that you were working with some large brands in a leadership capacity. Can you tell us a little bit about kind of your career trajectory and how you landed in the coaching field?
Stephanie Tishler:
Absolutely. Thanks for asking. I started my career in advertising sales on the television side, so I worked for Discovery Channel and in the 90s jumped over into the internet field. So it was a very, very exciting time, very fast paced. And there I was in my mid-20s, calling on some of the most seasoned marketing managers and SVPs, brands in the world like Kellogg's, ford, general Motors and I had a life coach myself who really talked to me about how to position not only myself professionally but the brand that I was representing, how to not keep talking and how to actively listen to really sell.
Stephanie Tishler:
And then, about 20 years into my career, I had the opportunity of a lifetime. I worked for Oprah Winfrey for eight years and I actually worked from home long before anybody worked from home. And then I had suffered a really big personal loss which forced me to look at the world a little differently and I really honed in on the skills that my life coach had given me in my late 20s and thought about I immediately was volunteered for or volunteer, as they say and my schedule was full and my husband kept saying to me do something that's meaningful for you. So I Googled how to become a life coach and I really wanted to help people who were going through a career transition that I had, and so not only do I do career transition, I also do professional development and business development. It's a nice combination of helping people really figure out what they're passionate about and how to get joy out of their daily lives at work.
Dana Dowdell:
Okay, now we're gonna talk all things career and how that intertwines with HR, but you have to answer the question of if you met Oprah. Of course I did, absolutely. That's amazing, what a cool. That's like a cool fun factor, like something nobody knows about me. That's amazing, just great. Yeah, yeah, I love that, so cool. So Obviously, most recent current events is the pandemic right and I think that has really changed the way that the labor market views work. And so what are you seeing with the people that you're working with in terms of what they're seeking out of employment?
Stephanie Tishler:
You know, I think that's a really interesting topic. I think it depends on the area of the country, I think it depends on the age of the applicant and I think it depends on that person's career experience. I know that the older millennials were really excited to be at home and now they're sort of rethinking that Like I think a hybrid situation would really work well because it gives them that work-life balance which that generation tends to really really value more than anything. I think sometimes the more seasoned managers are split. I know some that are working from home full-time. I know some that are demanding that their staff comes back in and I think it's really unfortunate if you can't keep an open mind to keep your employees happy, that potentially you might risk losing them.
Dana Dowdell:
I remember seeing a news story and it was about the great resignation and it was this woman and I want to say she worked in a school system or in some type of mental health capacity and during the pandemic I don't know if she had gotten laid off, but she found herself in a completely different career role. I want to say it was like retail or customer service or something like that, and she was speaking about how the pandemic forced her to kind of reevaluate her values and how that relates to work and that it wasn't worth the stress or the anxiety or the burnout that that previous position was bringing to her life. And do you think employers are kind of keeping up with the demands, the needs, the wants, the desires of the labor market, generation aside, yes and no.
Stephanie Tishler:
I think they're trying to. I think they're a little bit behind. I think everyone was so reactionary to the pandemic it was like, oh my gosh, we have to send everybody home. Nobody would have opted to do that ever, and now I think they're starting to realize that, no matter what generation, you have to keep your employees happy, to keep them long term. About 20 years ago, it may have been pretty common for people maybe even going back further to stay in one place of work for a really long time. That's just not a thing anymore. People bounce around and jump around, and, in terms of consistency and longevity, I think employers really want to keep people there, and so that's what I think they're focusing on now.
Dana Dowdell:
Yeah, I think in the HR world we look at that job hopping mentality to be a negative quality. Someone that stayed at a job for a year or two is not a viable candidate. But on the flip side of that, that's how you increase your salary. In many cases, right Is to explore other opportunities. So do you think what is HR's role in all of this? Do you think that we pigeonhole candidates? How do we contribute to this problem?
Stephanie Tishler:
I think that somebody who's interviewing or reviewing a resume should look at it with like widen the lens on it. Not just this person's looking to increase their salary, but like what experience can they bring to us that we don't already have? I think even in academics, institutions are looking to build a community of all varying types and I think if a human resource department looks at candidates that way pieces of the puzzle to make up the overall picture I think they'll end up with something that fits really nicely.
Dana Dowdell:
I think we're very quick to put on assumptions. It's your resume, it's your first impression and I understand all of that. But then we see a job hopper and we assume that they got lazy or disengaged or they got fired or any of those negative reasons for leaving employment, rather than seeing a candidate for their actual experience, whether it's six months or two years, its experience that may be relevant.
Stephanie Tishler:
Well, I can't blame a human resource person, or anyone for that matter, if somebody's job hopped six months, 12 months, two years how frequently, however, I would. You don't want to miss an excellent candidate if they have the skill set. And I think just by communicating with them you can get rid of some assumptions by saying why did you leave? And that person obviously put it down on their resume. So they are anxious to share what their history is. And I think one big mistake and I'm sure you're being an HR, you don't love reading a million cover letters, but I think getting rid of the cover letter was not a great thing, because that's the opportunity to tell your story and then also resumes.
Stephanie Tishler:
As a career coach, I tell everyone I don't do resumes, but I coach around them and I make recommendations and I will tell you a resume is so personal, I can make all these suggestions and you can take it to somebody else and they can say no, get rid of all it. Do it this way. It really is what's a reflection of you and what's going to make you stand out. And I think if you can position that correctly and then create a story around it and really owning that story is what's going to make you stand out to someone in HR.
Dana Dowdell:
With the clients that you're working with. What are you hearing them experiencing at work, Like what are some of their frustrations or challenges that they're experiencing from a work perspective that you're helping them kind of navigate through?
Stephanie Tishler:
So in the professional development space, I think a lot of it is communication. I think that not being clear enough. Brunay Brown, who's one of my favorites, says clear is kind, unclear, unkind. And you'd be amazed at how many people will show me an email and say I just don't understand what was not clear about this. And there's no actual due date. It isn't explained how to deliver, it doesn't explain what it looks like when it's done. So I think practicing on communication and asking yourself questions did I answer this, this, this and this before ascending I think is really important and know your audience too.
Dana Dowdell:
Yeah, I, oh gosh, I have so many Cause I've been, you know, on the receiving end of unclear communication or unclear expectations, but then just trying really hard to, with my team, making sure that I'm clear about expectations, and that's a learned, that's a skill that we learn, you know, over time. I think so. Are you finding people and the clients that you're working with are looking to take a step back from responsibility, from stress levels, from kind of like typical trajectory within the workforce, or do you think that people are still seeking that kind of those achievements?
Stephanie Tishler:
I think it's a combination and I think a lot of people come to me in the career transition space because they're missing something in their life, and oftentimes it's not necessarily at work. They're missing joy outside of work and sometimes they can combine the two. We do a really interesting exercise called the life story, which comes from a practice called Now what that was started by Laura Berman-Forking. It's a great book and you write, you divide your life by decade or, if you're younger, by seven years, and fact and feeling, and then we look at it together common themes, broken dreams and driving motivators. And oftentimes those broken dreams will show me that somebody was really passionate about, let's say, playing piano or writing or poetry or even athletics, and then, as they, you know, graduated college and got into the workforce, really, really honed in on their career, and perhaps they were working some crazy amount of hours and really lost the passion for all the things they forgot that they have passion for. So sometimes it's just a matter of encouraging them to do things outside of work.
Dana Dowdell:
Yeah, I think, seeing people as the whole person and that they're not just someone that comes in and punches the clock.
Stephanie Tishler:
Yeah, and that's a great opportunity for HR too, right, and I'm sure it's like, oh, one more thing we have to think about, but I think, longevity-wise it's a great way to keep employees, to have leadership groups or book clubs or something that feeds somebody's soul beyond the nine to five reporting.
Dana Dowdell:
Okay, let's talk about this idea of burnout, because I feel like we, I feel like everyone at some point has felt some sense of burnout, and I know I have a distinct memory of burning out in my last, one of my last jobs before I went out on my own and I was in tears and just realizing I didn't wanna do it anymore. Do you, I mean, burnout is a real thing, that happens, and do you think employers are kind of blind to that?
Stephanie Tishler:
Burnout is definitely real and I think if an employer chooses to be blind to it, they could be absolutely. And I think that's really the role of a manager is to have a pulse on the communication and body language or Zoom body language to really see people and see how they're showing up and see you, notice patterns, see how they're not showing up, the level of their work and just checking in. I think that's so important, especially with people who are working from home on a permanent basis. I think being able to see people eye to eye is really critical.
Dana Dowdell:
Is there some best practice around identifying burnout from a management level?
Stephanie Tishler:
I think checking in and providing a safe space for somebody to say how are you feeling possibly in a one-on-one, maybe if that person knows that it's coming up monthly or weekly a quick five-minute check-in how are you doing? I always tell people, asking open-ended questions is so much more powerful than saying are you doing okay. The difference between are you doing okay and how are you doing is really it's very different. It gives people a space to actually reply versus saying yes or no.
Dana Dowdell:
I think we saw stay interviews be a popular trend at the end of the pandemic around the great resignation in terms of viewing those check-ins. But those things are often facilitated by human resources or a culture assessment or an all-staff survey. So how can an HR professional take that information and hold leadership's feet to the fire in terms of implementing those touchpoints, kind of supporting change, supporting balance?
Stephanie Tishler:
I think it's a combination of things. I think surveys are great. Anonymous feedback forms are great. I think having somebody in the trenches who's going to give you open-onis feedback, which is really hard I think a lot of people are afraid that it's going to come back to bite them or speaking out. I just think it really it flows from the top.
Stephanie Tishler:
I think if you have great leaders who showcase their ability to work to prevent burnout, maybe it's half-day Fridays or it's cupcakes or it's something that you're an extra paycheck. I'm a huge fan of the Love Language Study and Paul White co-wrote a book with Gary Chapman called the Languages of Appreciation at Work. I think really understanding what makes somebody's bucket full, whether it's you're doing a great job, so positive feedback, or an actual gift of maybe $100 gift certificate or just I mean I know physical touch isn't necessarily appropriate or okay maybe a high-five or an elbow or something. Spending time with people too, especially in a space that has remote work, checking in 10 minutes once a week could really benefit people. I think telling people they do a great job is also really, really important to go a long way. Knowing what really makes your employees tick is, I think, critical to preventing burnout.
Dana Dowdell:
I find it so interesting because there's so many resources and best practice and studies that support leadership technique and leadership styles and yet we still choose to not practice those things. Do you have any thoughts on why we continue to have poor leaders?
Stephanie Tishler:
Well, I think if nobody tells you that you're doing something wrong, you just continue to think that you're doing it right. I think having asking for feedback is really important, and I think there's a lot of leaders in this world in top-level C-suite executives that don't take the time to do that. I'm not really sure whose responsibility that is If it's a leader's responsibility or HR but a good leader at some point will recognize the patterns that people are leaving or that people are pushing back on certain rules or processes that are being implemented. That's a really great question. I'd have to think more on that.
Dana Dowdell:
Yeah, I think I feel like it often falls on HR's shoulders and then in that capacity it can become exhausting to feel like a constant uphill battle around best practice and how we have conversations with staff and how we accept feedback and all of that. That's a huge undertaking in an HR capacity.
Stephanie Tishler:
Yeah, that could be a really great question to ask at the ground level, right when you're a true buddy, what would you do to make sure you get feedback as you grow within this organization? Or if it's somebody who isn't super high level, what would you do to give us feedback? If something you weren't happy with, would you just leave? Would you share?
Dana Dowdell:
One of my favorite questions now to ask on a performance evaluation is to ask the employee what do you need from the manager or from me in order to be successful? I think it just lends itself to that healthy conversation around development that is so essential for just a really strong working relationship.
Stephanie Tishler:
I agree. I think everything boils down to communication. I think it really just opening the door and asking people what they want and having an understanding of what they need. I think it's really important to have a variety of personalities and work styles in the workplace, as long as people are willing to understand and work within the parameters of how other people need to be worked with.
Dana Dowdell:
So you deal a lot with individuals who are in career transition or who are coming back to work after a leave of absence, lesson or a major life event, and we were kind of talking offline that we often get pigeonholed into what we think a position needs to be or what it should be. Can you talk a little bit about how can we become more flexible and open-minded around opportunities and recruiting and sourcing candidates?
Stephanie Tishler:
Well, I think that's a great question. I think the responsibility falls on both parties. I think that it is up to the candidate to position themselves in a way that matches the job description and I think, from an HR perspective, I think asking yourself, what skills beyond, what soft skills are we looking for, beyond just the hard skills? I think there's so many people that can be taught and so many skills that can be learned. I think oftentimes moms are so incredibly talented and get that skill set, gets left on the sidelines because they've taken time off to raise a family, and I think there's judgment attached to that.
Stephanie Tishler:
I think you mentioned earlier, we make a lot of assumptions and I think that's a big one. I think if you added a dollar sign to the amount of hours of things that busy parents do and it's not just moms, there's dads involved too I think that salary would be quite high between managing schedules and driving and laundry and making meals and just wrestling between kids. I think it's a big sacrifice and I think if you send somebody to training, I think that could really be worth the investment. So I think, again, it's widening the lens and looking at the puzzle piece that you're looking for and just if you see somebody who has an interesting resume and again that's a responsibility of the candidate to position it that way and somebody who really owns their story and they're really proud of taking the time off and they even put it on their resume, I think that tells you something right away.
Dana Dowdell:
I've seen the challenge in really connecting previous experience to a current position, with military experience as well, so people who were in some branch of service and are now civilian. I think it's oftentimes challenging for an employer to say, well that you know, I don't even know what that branch of service did or that position does in the military or army or whatever. How am I supposed to relate it to this position that we're recruiting for?
Stephanie Tishler:
It's so interesting so I'll share a quick personal story. I had a career transition client who has been a teacher for 15 years and she is hugely passionate about the arts. So she was very interested in potentially getting a job at a local museum and being in charge of their membership development. And we looked at the job description for this position and we looked at all of her skills and she not only worked with seventh and eighth graders but she also ran the school play. She was in charge of the whole department.
Stephanie Tishler:
So right there, you can pull out like she. You know she got sponsors for the program for the school play. So right there, you know she has great communication skills. She can sell, she can corral and take. You know, be in charge of seven and eighth graders mean that's harder than some adults, right. And you know, being in charge of a department means she is working, she has leadership skills. So we took all of those skills and put them into the skill set at the top so you could see how they were parallel to the job description. So I think the onus is a little bit on the candidate to showcase how it's transferable, because I mean, listen, I know HR people are magicians, but you're really not magicians, right? You know you can't. You can't see through a resume and I'm sure your piles, you know, several inches thick, so how does that person stand out? I think it's going taking the extra time to you know. Translate it for somebody who's looking to resume is really important.
Dana Dowdell:
Yes, we are not mind readers, although I wish we were sometimes, maybe not. No, I was going to say yeah, maybe not, maybe not. This is all great, great information and resources. If there's one thing that you wish the HR community did different when it comes to recruiting, sourcing, staffing, career development what would that be?
Stephanie Tishler:
The one thing. If I had to pinpoint it for one thing, I wish I think it's a combination. Again, I wish that people felt like HR was, and I'm sure there are organizations that do this I wish that human resources made themselves, made it clear to their employees and anyone they're interviewing that they are open and that it is a safe space. I have heard so many people say going to HR is scary. It's the. You know the end. I know it's going to turn one way or another and I'm like that's not what they're there for. I see HR very much. I mean, there are so many human resource professionals that are coaches and vice versa, and I think the skill set goes hand in hand and I just wish that people didn't make assumptions that human resources were, you know, were not available to them, and vice versa. So I think some of the responsibility on human resources is to make it clear that you know they're a team player.
Dana Dowdell:
Yeah, I also feel like we. I hear horror stories of when someone resigns or decides to leave an organization for you know a new opportunity or just a different, you know, a different position. They are treated so poorly and they're treated in kind of like a very spiteful, spiteful way. Is there any tips and tools on how we can look at those departures as more of a human experience, more of a, you know, not all bad, not all turnovers, bad turnover, and that someone is making the right decision for themselves?
Stephanie Tishler:
Yeah, that's a great question too. I think, of anything the last four years have taught us is it's a lot of. It is about mindset shift, you know, and what purpose would it be to treat somebody who's leaving badly? That's just going to, you know, I think, come back to bite you. I think that if you could take advantage of that person leaving and ask them what they wish had been different and maybe the person is just leaving for a different opportunity and maybe they won't share, but it is worth asking and making that person feel safe, yeah, that would be unfortunate because I think a lot of times it's just that horrible two week, you know, I'll give two week notice, and then it's just super uncomfortable. Anything like more than two weeks, I think, unless you're super high level also creates a lot of toxic work environment. You know, just leave already it's a lot of. That is awkward. So I think having a set process and be nice about it could probably help that situation.
Dana Dowdell:
Yeah, it helps not to burn a bridge, because you never know where you're going to run into that candidate again. And I think it goes back to that idea of being open to receiving feedback and receiving feedback that maybe not everything is what you think it is or what you wish it was.
Stephanie Tishler:
There's an exercise in the Now what practice? It's called more in the package, and I take a lot of my clients through this when they first come to me, because I think you have to decide. You know, what skills did you gain from this? What great experiences, what gifts and opportunities. What are you ready to leave behind? What do you want to leave behind? How do you move forward in a very healthy way? And I think those would be some great questions for a human resources manager to say, like what are three of your greatest memories here? And you know, what do you want to leave behind? That's a very big, open-ended question that could provide you a lot of great feedback.
Dana Dowdell:
I love those questions. Those would make great questions to add in an exit interview. Yeah, great, stephanie, this was fantastic. Where can listeners connect with you?
Stephanie Tishler:
I'm at tishlercoachingservicescom and I also am on social LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram.
Dana Dowdell:
Fantastic and, as always, all of Stephanie's links will be in the show notes, so make sure that you connect with her. She's got some great resources in terms of coaching and development opportunities. So, stephanie, thank you so much for being on Quirky HR.